Weapon Ratios

[webrunner5]

No doubt that with equal weapons in both hands the Secondary does less damage because it hits less often.

Put 2 weapons with the same ratio in both hands, but have them different types. By that I mean say a 1hb in primary and a 1hs in secondary. It takes forever to raise the Slashing skill in secondary compared to the Blunt weapon in Primary or vise versa.

There is a formula around but I don't remember it. I would bet the Secondary, being equal, does at least 30% less damage than the Primary.

[Cecily]

Your primary weapon will trigger once every time its delay runs out. This will run a double attack check. Your secondary weapon will run a dual wield check when its delay runs out. If that is successful, you attack and then check for a double. This is where baby quads come from. Obviously offhand does less because it's not a sure thing. If you put a moss covered twig in your offhand though... Expect to get a ton of 1hb skill ups quickly.

That's why I always suggest to put the "best" damage dealing weapon in primary and w/e other junk you have in offhand. Upgrade main, swap old main to offhand. Also why I hate primary only weapons.

[Synthlol]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also gotta remember the importance of delay when it comes to things like push and damage shields.

Originally Posted by webrunner5 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No doubt that with equal weapons in both hands the Secondary does less damage because it hits less often.

Again, I understand these nuances, but they are irrelevant to the thread topic. I'm not asking what hand a particular weapon should be equipped in, or for the pros/cons of using faster or slower weapons (other than delay's direct effect on autoattack dmg output).

The topic I'm trying to gain insight on is whether ceteris paribus, do equal ratio weapons truly produce the same average damage output? If damage bonuses didn't exist, as in the offhand weapon when dual wielding, or below level 28 in the main hand, are a jade mace and knuckles dusters essentially the same weapon?

Please ignore interactions of mechanics like damage shields, push, riposte checks, damage bonuses, damage caps, etc. I'm just looking for proof that equal ratio weapons have the same theoretical damage output when considering only the effects of their damage (uncapped) and delay (no mainhand bonus).

[Dulu]

Wouldn't abilities like Double/Triple Attack and Riposte play into a weapons overall DPS?

I don't know the rate at which DA/TA procs, or if it's modified by speed.. but Riposte seems to be pretty clearly enhanced by having a slow weapon in the main hand.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Synthlol [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, I understand these nuances, but they are irrelevant to the thread topic. I'm not asking what hand a particular weapon should be equipped in, or for the pros/cons of using faster or slower weapons (other than delay's direct effect on autoattack dmg output).

The topic I'm trying to gain insight on is whether ceteris paribus, do equal ratio weapons truly produce the same average damage output? If damage bonuses didn't exist, as in the offhand weapon when dual wielding, or below level 28 in the main hand, are a jade mace and knuckles dusters essentially the same weapon?

Please ignore interactions of mechanics like damage shields, push, riposte checks, damage bonuses, damage caps, etc. I'm just looking for proof that equal ratio weapons have the same theoretical damage output when considering only the effects of their damage (uncapped) and delay (no mainhand bonus).

In that case find a torpor shaman and a cleric and do a ton of parses on a long fight, maybe on Priest of Discord and let him ch himself and don't use haste. Short of having the code, you won't get that proof any other way.

Hypothetically, a low delay weapon of the same ratio will out damage a high delay weapon in a short group fight because you'll get more successful swings in before the mob dies and a miss or missed double attack doesn't lose as much damage as in a high delay weapon, though the difference is probably minimal. In a long fight they're probably the same.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In that case find a torpor shaman and a cleric and do a ton of parses on a long fight, maybe on Priest of Discord and let him ch himself and don't use haste. Short of having the code, you won't get that proof any other way.

Hypothetically, a low delay weapon of the same ratio will out damage a high delay weapon in a short group fight because you'll get more successful swings in before the mob dies and a miss or missed double attack doesn't lose as much damage as in a high delay weapon, though the difference is probably minimal. In a long fight they're probably the same.

Actually, the slower higher damage weapon should, on average, do slightly more damage. This is because the delay doesn't count until after the first swing (or dual wield check), which is immediate on pressing auto-attack (assuming target is in melee range, of course.)

Compare two weapons, one 10/20, and the other 20/40:
T+0.0: both weapons swing, the 20 damage weapon will, on average, do twice the damage of the 10 damage weapon.
T+2.0: faster weapon gets second swing, damage is now equal
T+4.0: both weapons swing, slower weapon now has 2x20, faster weapon has 3x10, you do the math...

All things being equal, the shorter the fight, the more it favors the higher damage weapon, with the most extreme case being a fight that lasts only one swing.

Things that are unequal:
* primary hand damage bonus (but this thread is about secondary)
* push desirable? you'll push more with faster weapon
* push undesirable? you'll push less with slower weapon
* target DS? you'll take less damage with slower weapon
* target hits very hard? you'll take less riposte damage with slower weapon


Things that you might think are unequal but are actually equal:
* comparing damage numbers without delay? um, seriously, simple math like this is not even slightly hard.
* weapon procs? weapon proc rate per swing is normalized to achieve a target rate vs. time (usually referred to as procs/minute), your chance of a proc on any given swing is affected by weapon delay and haste/slow (google shakerpaging for an amusing use/abuse of this during the PoP era.)


It is, of course, theoretically possible that the p99 devs have implemented a combat system that is fundamentally different from the one that was parsed to death on live. But I've never seen any evidence of that. And really, despite the 1960's era talking Barbie doll's claim, math is not hard.

[edit]
Not taking a swipe at anybody with the "math isn't hard" comment, btw. Just trying to emphasize that this is pretty straightforward once you take the time to be methodical about your analysis.
[/edit]

[Danth]

Optionally, look at it another way: If there's a difference, it's so minute that nobody has ever noticed after all these years.

Danth

[Synthlol]

Originally Posted by Synthlol [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please ignore interactions of mechanics like damage shields, push, riposte checks, damage bonuses, damage caps, etc. I'm just looking for proof that equal ratio weapons have the same theoretical damage output when considering only the effects of their damage (uncapped) and delay (no mainhand bonus).

Originally Posted by Dulu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wouldn't abilities like Double/Triple Attack and Riposte play into a weapons overall DPS?

I don't know the rate at which DA/TA procs, or if it's modified by speed.. but Riposte seems to be pretty clearly enhanced by having a slow weapon in the main hand.

I'm not talking about overall dps, I'm talking about autoattack dps. Dual wield and double attack skill checks may very well be crucial variables, as they directly control the number of autoattacks in a given time frame.

Ripostes are not autoattacks. The benefits of a slower weapon with regards to Riposte have no place in this discussion.

[Synthlol]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Things that are unequal:
* push desirable? you'll push more with faster weapon
* push undesirable? you'll push less with slower weapon
* target DS? you'll take less damage with slower weapon
* target hits very hard? you'll take less riposte damage with slower weapon

I guess I'm just going to have to constantly repeat myself throughout this entire thread, but these are all things I understand which also have zero relevance to my question.

What I'm looking for is clarification of the foundation of the assumption that the ratio of weapon base damage to weapon delay is the premier metric of offhand weapon quality, when in fact swing damage is distributed in a manner unknown to me within a damage curve which is calculated by a formula (which again I don't know specifically) that takes into account not only weapon base damage, but also things like character STR value, character ATK rating, and target AC rating.

I know faster weapons push more.
I know faster weapons riposte for less damage.
I know faster weapons cause the player to eat more ripostes and damage shields.
I know faster weapons apply the static mainhand damage bonus more frequently.
I know there's a damage cap limiting swing damage at low levels.


Please exclude these kinds of topics from the discussion, as they are not the focus. I'm really at a loss on how to clarify any further what I'm getting at. I'm not trying to argue why judging by ratio is wrong. I'm saying I don't know why it's right.

[Jimjam]

I've noticed when playing low level characters that sometimes my weapon will do more than it's 'max hit' (i.e. greater than 2xDMG). It tends to happen more when my Str is buffed.

Can this bonus damage from Str apply to the off hand? And do we know if this bonus damage is a factor of DMG or is it a simply added on bonus?

If the rare bonus damage from Str applies to the offhand AND it is not a factor of DMG then it stands to reason that lower delay weapons will benefit more from it, in the same way that low delay primary weapons benefit from damage bonus (just to a lesser extent).

Also, to repeat my previous question, how does EQ handle rounding fractions when working out damage/hit? This could produce errors that might benefit different delays.