Interesting Class Changes

[dafier]

Originally Posted by Itap [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Every other Melee class receives double attack, minus bards.

Hence the reason why High level bards in raiding are for simply singing and scratching a monsters back...every now and then.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by dafier [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hence the reason why High level bards in raiding are for simply singing and scratching a monsters back...every now and then.

Even in groups, bard melee is low priority. You would be surprised how many people asked me to melee when the casters are lom and the puller keeps chain pulling.

CC > haste/buffs/mana regen > melee.

People need to realize that bards have no double attack and a 210 cap on dual wield. This means you have less dual wield checks than paladins/SKs, who have a double attack cap of 235. Mathematically, this means pally/SK melee damage is superior with equal gear/level/buffs, because they will double attack more than you will dual wield.

They look like they can do decent melee damage because they're dual wielding, so people think they must be kind of a rogue/enchanter hybrid who can dps and mez, but the reality is that bard melee damage is laughable. I play one, i see my combat log. Even with Aanya's Quickening (64% haste), fully shaman buffed + my stat songs all stacked, it's simply pathetic when i look at the monk/rogue/warrior/ranger having 8 hits every time i hit twice. And that's when i'm not missing 6 times in a row.

I do more damage with my 3 dot songs (163/tick at the moment) than meleeing and my weapons are decent. Guardians Mace and Harmonic Dagger.

And yet, when the cleric/chanter/wiz are lom because of a bad pull, i'm getting told to melee because "mobs don't die fast enough". The amount of misinformation about bards it's just incredible.

And yet, still today 16 years later, there are still people who go "nah, bard melee isn't that bad." No, it's really fucking bad.

[Arteker]

Originally Posted by Erydan Ouragan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Even in groups, bard melee is low priority. You would be surprised how many people asked me to melee when the casters are lom and the puller keeps chain pulling.

CC > haste/buffs/mana regen > melee.

People need to realize that bards have no double attack and a 210 cap on dual wield. This means you have less dual wield checks than paladins/SKs, who have a double attack cap of 235. Mathematically, this means pally/SK melee damage is superior with equal gear/level/buffs, because they will double attack more than you will dual wield.

They look like they can do decent melee damage because they're dual wielding, so people think they must be kind of a rogue/enchanter hybrid who can dps and mez, but the reality is that bard melee damage is laughable. I play one, i see my combat log. Even with Aanya's Quickening (64% haste), fully shaman buffed + my stat songs all stacked, it's simply pathetic when i look at the monk/rogue/warrior/ranger having 8 hits every time i hit twice. And that's when i'm not missing 6 times in a row.

I do more damage with my 3 dot songs (163/tick at the moment) than meleeing and my weapons are decent. Guardians Mace and Harmonic Dagger.

And yet, when the cleric/chanter/wiz are lom because of a bad pull, i'm getting told to melee because "mobs don't die fast enough". The amount of misinformation about bards it's just incredible.

And yet, still today 16 years later, there are still people who go "nah, bard melee isn't that bad." No, it's really fucking bad.

unless the bard has epic, his instruments mod on his songs are more valuable than small dmg

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by Arteker [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

unless the bard has epic, his instruments mod on his songs are more valuable than small dmg

I agree, and i'll even add that the real usefulness of bard epic is the singing modifier. It's the only item in the game that improves song based on singing. Every other instruments has a batter modifier than the epic, which is 18.

Since slow/mana regen cannot be improved by any instruments, the only thing bard epic gives is a better snare/debuff with the 51 song and slightly better mana regen with the lvl 32 mana song. It has a nice 55% haste proc with stats though, so if there is no chanter in the group, you can switch chorus of celerity for something else.

Earlier this week i was in a LCY group in KC. warrior/monk/rogue/rogue/shaman and me. Shaman was main healing with greater heal because he was 52. No clarity. How did he do that? Because i wasn't meleeing.

When i wasn't mezzing, i was stacking hymn of resto+niv's melody of preservation/3 pulses of mana song. Iksar regen+fungi+regrowth+hymn+niv's, he was getting close to 100hp regen ticks. That means a lot of cannis and with mana song on top of that, he kept 4 melee hasted and buffed + slow on all mobs + main healing with greater heal. Constant pulls too.

Me not meleeing was the right way to play, in that particular case.

[Daldaen]

You can look at all the casters and see many flaws.

Mana regen - Necros get Lich, Shamans get Canni, Enchanter get C/ToT, Wizards get Harvest/Manaskin/Epic, Mages get mod rods, Druids get Mask (at level 60)... Clerics get... ???

Eventually this balances out when wizards get familiars and another harvest in Luclin/PoP. Mages get pet canni, druids get mana regen on their HP buff and clerics get mana regen on their self HP buff and Yaulp.

Efficient Healing - Clerics get CH and HoTs (CE/CH), Shamans get Torpor, Druids get... ???

Eventually it balances out in Luclin when Druids get Tunare's Renewal.

Etc etc etc

Tl;dr - Luclin/PoP worked to bring the game to the most balanced state it ever was, with the best content there ever was.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by Grizzled [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When druids and shamans got rez, I became disgusted with live eq. Original eq was designed for class roles, and weaknesses. Players quickly overcame most of the weaknesses. But yet the classes were not for the most part identical like in a famous blizzard game.

You mean starcraft 2 right??

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Luclin/PoP worked to bring the game to the most balanced state it ever was, with the best content there ever was.

Yes, that era was amazing. Every class was useful and had something to bring. Hell, even wizards were doing fine in regular xp groups, that says something.

The content was the best too, very balanced. I remember grouping in PoEarth with guildies for AAs, even with a tank in raid gear the healer had to pay attention and we had to be on point with CC. Definitely didn't feel too easy. Oh and paladin tanks with slay undead in Crypt of Decay.. damn.

Every class was powerful and had fun abilities and spells without all the bloat on live. You didn't need 5 hotbars full of AAs and macros during PoP.

I know a lot of people bitch about Luclin, but it's one of my favorite expansions. The zones were awesome in a weird and a creepy way, i spent an unhealthy amount of time in akheva ruins, easily my favorite zone in the game. There was so much to do. Grinding AAs, shard groups, man i wish i could go back to 2002-2004 =/

[fadetree]

Yep, I loved the luclin/PoP era...best game there ever was imo.

Originally Posted by Erydan Ouragan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You mean starcraft 2 right??

Yes, that era was amazing. Every class was useful and had something to bring. Hell, even wizards were doing fine in regular xp groups, that says something.

The content was the best too, very balanced. I remember grouping in PoEarth with guildies for AAs, even with a tank in raid gear the healer had to pay attention and we had to be on point with CC. Definitely didn't feel too easy. Oh and paladin tanks with slay undead in Crypt of Decay.. damn.

Every class was powerful and had fun abilities and spells without all the bloat on live. You didn't need 5 hotbars full of AAs and macros during PoP.

I know a lot of people bitch about Luclin, but it's one of my favorite expansions. The zones were awesome in a weird and a creepy way, i spent an unhealthy amount of time in akheva ruins, easily my favorite zone in the game. There was so much to do. Grinding AAs, shard groups, man i wish i could go back to 2002-2004 =/

[Rayzor84]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can look at all the casters and see many flaws.

Mana regen - Necros get Lich, Shamans get Canni, Enchanter get C/ToT, Wizards get Harvest/Manaskin/Epic, Mages get mod rods, Druids get Mask (at level 60)... Clerics get... ???

Eventually this balances out when wizards get familiars and another harvest in Luclin/PoP. Mages get pet canni, druids get mana regen on their HP buff and clerics get mana regen on their self HP buff and Yaulp.

Efficient Healing - Clerics get CH and HoTs (CE/CH), Shamans get Torpor, Druids get... ???

Eventually it balances out in Luclin when Druids get Tunare's Renewal.

Etc etc etc

Tl;dr - Luclin/PoP worked to bring the game to the most balanced state it ever was, with the best content there ever was.

Except that when every class does everything well, all distinctions are lost. Playing a shaman over a druid becomes negligible, making classes less valuable and unique.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Rayzor84 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Except that when every class does everything well, all distinctions are lost. Playing a shaman over a druid becomes negligible, making classes less valuable and unique.

False.

Clerics retained Rez, CH efficiency, Reverse DS, Symbol
Druids retained ATK debuffs, skin buff, SoE/FoE, 2nd tier nukes and heals
Shamans retained Slow, Malo, Avatar, Canni, Melee stat buffs, Focus

Having a shaman as a group healer and a druid as a group healer in Luclin or PoP was very different. Shamans healed through Slows mitigating damage, Torpor/Quiessence healing over time, and crappy single heals. Druids healed through inefficient CHs, ATK Debuffs reducing DPS (this was never as effective as it should've been IMO for grouping), and solid patch heals. Clerics had CH remaining awesome as well as solid HoTs and patch/fast heals, and reverse DS.

Every guild wanted multiples of each class and every group could fit in each class somewhere, Clerics were almost required in some of the harder camps, which was unfortunate but if you had a solid group otherwise you could make do with a Shaman/Druid combo or an Enchanter/Druid combo.

Clerics were terrible at DPS and preventing damage.
Shamans were terrible solo healers and DPS
Druids were mediocre solo healers (bad without slows) and mediocre DPS.

[Grizzled]

When druids and shamans got rez, I became disgusted with live eq. Original eq was designed for class roles, and weaknesses. Players quickly overcame most of the weaknesses. But yet the classes were not for the most part identical like in a famous blizzard game.