What's the beef with boxing?

[Tann]

Originally Posted by sox7d [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"But you don't have to two-box"
When everyone CAN, everyone will. If you think it's hard to find a group now, wait until 1/4 of the server is two-boxing. Then more people will be fed up with the LFG times and start boxing which ends up being a vicious circle until everyone is.

"But you don't have to play an enchanter or a shaman"
When everyone CAN, everyone will. If you think it's hard to solo now, wait until 1/4 of the server is enc/shm. Then more people will be fed up with not getting loot camps and start a shaman or enchanter which ends up being a vicious circle until everyone is.

[kildone]

Originally Posted by sox7d [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Whatever, I'll bite.

The "play by yourself, together" trend in MMOs has turned the genre from immersive worlds to putting a hose in your mouth that shoots a stead stream of shallow-gratification down your throat. Everquest, FFXI, UO, SWG had bullshit in them. Sometimes it took the form of long leveling, difficult, scattered quests, class imbalance, darkness, inability to solo, no maps, harsh death penalties or dependent transportation. But each of those things, while inconvenient, added something to the game.

Long leveling gave prestige
Difficult, scattered quests gave accomplishment
Class imbalance gave personality
Darkness gave realism
Inability to solo gave community
No maps gave immersion
Harsh death penalties gave emotion
Dependent transportation gave ecology

Maybe its not for everyone, but memorable games need bullshit. Think of it like a cake. A cake consists of two parts, the somewhat unpalatable, spongy bread ("bullshit") and the sweet frosting (leveling up, gear upgrades, convenience). Everyone can agree that the frosting tastes better than the cake itself, but what recent MMORPGS have done is just throw a tub of frosting at the player and tell them to dig in. They get to max level by themselves after a month, then they quit and never think about Age of Conan, SW:TOR, TERA, Aion, Warhammer, Marvel Heroes, Guild Wars 2, Rift, Wildstar or Final Fantasy XIV ever again.

Throw two-boxing into the mix, players now play with themselves and community turns to shit like every other MMORPG out there.

"But you don't have to two-box"
When everyone CAN, everyone will. If you think it's hard to find a group now, wait until 1/4 of the server is two-boxing. Then more people will be fed up with the LFG times and start boxing which ends up being a vicious circle until everyone is.

P1999 is the last bastion of bullshit, and I'll be damned if anyone takes any of it away.

I am still not convinced that just because boxing is allowed that people will. Many say this but nobody offers examples. Are there specific games or periods in those games that it was demonstrated that huge groups of people will box if allowed to? By no means do I have extensive knowledge or experience on the subject and would appreciate more specifics to back up the generalities.

Especially on a server like P99, where so many including myself enjoy the community spirit of grouping, I do not know that it would be a problem.

On live I played a cleric with a good reputation and could always find a group within minutes of logging in. I knew folks though who would sit for two or more hours practically begging for a group. I knew other folks who would two box while looking for a group instead and stop boxing as soon as a group was available. I have never known anyone who would say they don't want a group and would rather box. Those folks who wanted to play alone would play a class that could solo.

[kildone]

Originally Posted by sox7d [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...but recent MMORPGS have done is just throw a tub of frosting at the player and tell them to dig in. They get to max level by themselves after a month, then they quit and never think about Age of Conan, SW:TOR, TERA, Aion, Warhammer, Marvel Heroes, Guild Wars 2, Rift, Wildstar or Final Fantasy XIV ever again.

These examples seem more related to game mechanics and design and not about boxing. I don't think progressing on this train of though directly to boxing can be made logically without more evidence.

[Glenzig]

Originally Posted by kildone [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Glenzig

You miss the point. I would not feel the need to box just because I could. I might desire to box if there was no other way I could play certain classes when no groups are available.

I might be wrong but I seem to read a lot on the forums about how you don't want to play certain classes because nobody will invite you.

Oh that's why you started a thread about it? Because its something you really don't want to do? Yeah ok. You, me , and everyone else would box if the option were made available. In every mmo I have played where it is allowed I have initially resisted the option to box. But after a while with groups being hard to get due to the prevalence of boxers, I have given in and found myself boxing toons from that point on.
The window for "man I just can't find any groups" reduces enormously for some people when the option to box is present, and completely erases the need or desire to even look for a group for most of the population. If you think that it wouldn't hurt the community, just look at how many people get banned for breaking this rule at present. And on top of that the amount of people that circumvent the rule by obtaining an IP exemption for their "wives", or "sons", or "roommates".
Everyone would do it. If not initially, then eventually. It ruins mmo's. Its against the server rules. And it adds nothing to the EQ experience that cannot already be had by relying on the community. Those seem like pretty good reasons not to allow it to me.

[sox7d]

Originally Posted by Glenzig [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh that's why you started a thread about it? Because its something you really don't want to do? Yeah ok. You, me , and everyone else would box if the option were made available. In every mmo I have played where it is allowed I have initially resisted the option to box. But after a while with groups being hard to get due to the prevalence of boxers, I have given in and found myself boxing toons from that point on.
The window for "man I just can't find any groups" reduces enormously for some people when the option to box is present, and completely erases the need or desire to even look for a group for most of the population. If you think that it wouldn't hurt the community, just look at how many people get banned for breaking this rule at present. And on top of that the amount of people that circumvent the rule by obtaining an IP exemption for their "wives", or "sons", or "roommates".
Everyone would do it. If not initially, then eventually. It ruins mmo's. Its against the server rules. And it adds nothing to the EQ experience that cannot already be had by relying on the community. Those seem like pretty good reasons not to allow it to me.

tfw find myself agreeing with glenzig 100%. this is some russia & US vs germany shit.

[kildone]

Originally Posted by Glenzig [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh that's why you started a thread about it? Because its something you really don't want to do? Yeah ok. You, me , and everyone else would box if the option were made available. In every mmo I have played where it is allowed I have initially resisted the option to box. But after a while with groups being hard to get due to the prevalence of boxers, I have given in and found myself boxing toons from that point on.
The window for "man I just can't find any groups" reduces enormously for some people when the option to box is present, and completely erases the need or desire to even look for a group for most of the population. If you think that it wouldn't hurt the community, just look at how many people get banned for breaking this rule at present. And on top of that the amount of people that circumvent the rule by obtaining an IP exemption for their "wives", or "sons", or "roommates".
Everyone would do it. If not initially, then eventually. It ruins mmo's. Its against the server rules. And it adds nothing to the EQ experience that cannot already be had by relying on the community. Those seem like pretty good reasons not to allow it to me.

The distinction I was making is between wanting to box and feeling the need to box. Some folks want to eat pizza and wings. On the other hand some folks feel the need to smoke, likely because it is legal and nicotine is addictive.

I appreciate your deeper explanation on how it can progress from only wanting to box when "needed" to becoming the norm. How it can change the atmosphere of a server / community over time. After considering your arguments as well as others on this thread, I believe it makes sense.

I honestly feel that I would stop playing if I boxed more than an hour without finding a group. I quickly grew tired of boxing (my buddies Enc) on live when the game started to spiral and canceled my account.

As for starting this thread because I want to box on P99 that is not the case. If that was my motivation for making posts I would be posting on the thread in general chat. I genuinely just enjoy a good discussion and wanted to see how many well thought out reasons there were against it rather than the typical one liners.

Again there is a distinction, maybe subtle, between wanting to box sometimes and that being the reason for starting this thread. I understand completly that boxing will always be prohibited here and any posts in attempt to reverse that would be a waste of time.

The discussion here though was definitely not a waste of my time. I thoroughly enjoyed it and feel like I learned some things.

Thanks again to you and the others who posted well thought out responses.
Wish I could buy you all a beer.

[Swish]

You can box on any other emulated non-P99 server as far as I know.

Remember that the idea of playing online is to interact with other people, right? To be part of a community?

Ever go into "The Hidden Forest" server? Please do, because you'll find people 10-12 boxing and if you say hello in a public channel you'll be met with silence... everyone is in their own little world which just happens to be online. It's as good as Skyrim there in terms of interacting with other "real" people.

If you enjoy having to alt tab every few seconds to cast a spell in other windows, reposition someone, hit backstab...whatever... there's places to enjoy it. Most of us here though don't see how that adds to the game.

LFG? Make a group yourself. Interact with others.
Need a port? /who all dial
Need an item? Sit in EC and watch the fat cats spamming.

Remember mercs on the live servers? Yeaaaahhh... that worked well didn't it? ;p

[Norathorr]

No boxing is one of the things that makes this server great. I remember during this part of the timeline on live hardly any people boxed due to internet connection issues and hardware constraints. I certainly enjoyed EQ before boxing was a generally done thing. I know lots are happy to drop boxes, but others prefer to box and hold down content. Here on P1999 you are forced to make friends which in a MMO setting is the best thing possible for a long lasting community.

[Nuggie]

I boxed on live. At some point I stopped wanting to group and just wanted to see what the highest/hardest mob/encounter was that I could kill while boxing with myself.

It was very lonely. I'm glad people are forced to group here.

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by Nuggie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I boxed on live. At some point I stopped wanting to group and just wanted to see what the highest/hardest mob/encounter was that I could kill while boxing with myself.

It was very lonely. I'm glad people are forced to group here.

If it was lonely, you could have decided to group with people? The "forced kind community" argument is an interesting one though. Of course, if the boxing rule really did foster a spirit of community, you wouldn't expect to have the most anti-social raid scene ever created.