SKs: Iksar and their AC bonus. Ghost, or Real

[Pheer]

Originally Posted by Celatus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You could debate it i guess but yes it is that much better. + regen while fd is nice and the ac bonus is nice. I guess it depends on what you feel you're role is. If you are off tanking then greenmist is the shit. If you fancy yourself a 2h dpser i don't know what to tell you.

Theres plenty of good knight 1handers in velious. Maybe greenmist is decent if you dont ever expect to have velious raid loot, but if youre in a guild that can eventually make it into NToV etc. then its pretty irrelevant imo. Also if you want regen while FD then you can just carry a fungi around with you.

[Raev]

IMO even if the ogre stun immunity only applied to FD, Ogres would still not be worse than Iksars as SKs.

[gobbosnobbo]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

IMO even if the ogre stun immunity only applied to FD, Ogres would still not be worse than Iksars as SKs.

That seems a bit of an over-exaggeration ...

[Celatus]

Originally Posted by Pheer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Theres plenty of good knight 1handers in velious. Maybe greenmist is decent if you dont ever expect to have velious raid loot, but if youre in a guild that can eventually make it into NToV etc. then its pretty irrelevant imo. Also if you want regen while FD then you can just carry a fungi around with you.

true but none of them have as awesome of a proc as greenmist. Everyone should carry a fungi with them. Every guild I was ever in on live it was required raid equipment until probably DoN. If Warriors could use greenmist every raid warrior would be Iksar just for the proc. Obviously procing weapons are much less important for sk than they are for warriors but still.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Knight classes tanking raid mobs, even trash, tends to be more about guild culture than about class strengths. Some guilds use Warriors for everything and forget about their knights except for picking up class loot. Other guilds like rapid aggro-lock and use knight tanks for trash clearing with some regularity. I don't really see it as an expansion issue. Raid bosses during Velious, however, tend to require Warriors to a much greater degree than in Kunark due to increased length of battles. There are a handful that knights are sometimes used for, but few and far between. Knights can easily handle most trash, but don't make a knight if you particularly care about tanking Velious raid bosses with any great regularity.

There's nothing wrong with Iksar Shadow Knights. I wouldn't make one simply for Greenmist, but it's a very nice perk. Note that Velious will be out for the better part of a year before the quest is even made available.

Danth

Implying that a Warrior made now will tank Velious raid bosses regularly seems like it might maybe be a bit of a stretch.

[Danth]

True, most guilds already have their tank corps pretty well set. Getting a regular main tank slot in any established guild is always a tough job. This, too, is partly related to guild culture--some guilds' tank groups are more open to new blood than others. On the other hand, all guilds face gradual turnover, so a sufficiently determined player will eventually get his chance. A Warrior made today might be too late to do much for Velious progression (we'll see...Velious was "imminent" a couple years ago as it is), but it won't be going anywhere and a year or two from now guilds will still need tanks. Certainly that Warrior will be more likely to eventually end up a guild's main tank for Velious bosses than a Paladin or Shadow Knight would be!

Danth

[wycca]

P99 has pretty high turnover in general. I'm guessing theres not a single guild out there that wouldn't welcome a competent war, and come Velious I imagine sk/pal demand will tick up with all the trash where agro is key.

[pasi]

Greenmist is a good weapon for casuals, but it is outclassed by pretty much every raid 1hander or 2hander. There are assloads of knight-only weapons available with 10 knights playing the server. You can buy an Ebon Mace -now- for like 8k which is close to the same ratio as Greenmist (no proc or stats though). Zlandicar sword will likely be cheap which is a 28/30 droppable 1hander. It wouldn't surprise me if Narandi Lance is regularly sold later on too.

I'm purposely ignoring the far superior no-drop stuff here which is going to mass rot.

Anyhow, I've got about 400 days played on live as an Iksar SK, I'd be lying if I told you that I didn't wish I had rolled Ogre instead. The main benefit of iksar SKs is the ability to forage.

[gobbosnobbo]

After spending the last two nights on researching Stun resistance for ogre on both P1999 and its live counterpart at the time, this is what I've discovered.

1. According to Ogre players who played during live on Velious, stun resist doesn't work on monsters over level 51.

2. Bash still has a % chance to interrupt a spell, regardless if the stun hits you or not.

3. There are too many spell interruption mechanics on p1999, such as push, chance on interrupt per hit, and spell interrupt on bash mechanic to rely on Stun resistance to save your life in situations where many mobs are hitting the Ogre. Statistically (Mathematically), the chance of stun resistance saving your life because a spell wasn't interrupted by bash, is an incredibly small margin, and is one of the less likely factors that determines whether a player is going to die or not.

4. Stun resistance only works in a 90 degree cone in front of the Ogre. Therefore, monsters not within this range can still stun you from the "front" or adjacent to the front.

5. Warriors claim that stun resistance helps them keep agro on mobs, however, this is mostly a problem for under geared or fresh warriors, and no problem for Knights as they use different mechanics other than taunt to draw agro.

It is true that maybe at the very beginning of a pull, if a warrior is stunned right away without being able to use mallet to acquire agro may have a small chance of being problematic, though again statistically, this isn't likely; also, if it does happen, agro will most likely fall to another warrior, or knight doing the same thing before it is reacquired by the main tank.

To boot, agro isn't an issue for knights, and with velious stats coming out, there is literally no other reason to play an ogre, since its stat advantage will be will be nullified by gear and stat caps.

6. Slowed mobs bash at a severely reduced rate when slow is applied to the mob. Once this happens, the advantage of having stun resistance diminishes in correlation with the frequency of bashes over a fight.

TL-DR : With the information gathered, I have come to what I believe is both an objective and unbiased conclusion. Other than being annoyed for 2 seconds or for spamming a cast after being interrupted by the bash, and the very slim margin it has on saving your life or regaining agro in the first 2 seconds of an engagement, Ogre stun has been vastly overrated for a while now, and the advantages of being an Ogre diminish even more-so with the introduction of velious. The truth that Ogres have an advantage over the other races due to stun resistance, such as Iksar and Troll, lies firmly seated in perception rather than reality.

Unless we're talking about aesthetics, and then I hand it to them, Ogres do look pretty neat.



PS. If I have left any information that is incorrect on here, please correct it. My research was gathered from searching for outdated forums on the topic, individual player experience, and any raw patch notes I could find.

[Pheer]

Originally Posted by gobbosnobbo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

After spending the last two nights on researching Stun resistance for ogre on both P1999 and its live counterpart at the time, this is what I've discovered.

1. According to Ogre players who played during live on Velious, stun resist doesn't work on monsters over level 51.

Pretty sure thats not the case here.

Originally Posted by gobbosnobbo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. Bash still has a % chance to interrupt a spell, regardless if the stun hits you or not.

Not sure if it works like this here, if it does then its not a high enough % chance for me to have really noticed it.

Originally Posted by gobbosnobbo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. There are too many spell interruption mechanics on p1999, such as push, chance on interrupt per hit, and spell interrupt on bash mechanic to rely on Stun resistance to save your life in situations where many mobs are hitting the Ogre. Statistically (Mathematically), the chance of stun resistance saving your life because a spell wasn't interrupted by bash, is an incredibly small margin, and is one of the less likely factors that determines whether a player is going to die or not.

I disagree with this one entirely. Unless your channeling is shit then it shouldnt be that hard to get off an FD even with a considerable amount of mobs on you. Ive channeled BE greaves FD (3 sec cast time) many times through multiple mobs meleeing me when I had an FD fail.

Originally Posted by gobbosnobbo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

4. Stun resistance only works in a 90 degree cone in front of the Ogre. Therefore, monsters not within this range can still stun you from the "front" or adjacent to the front.

Not that big a deal, you just have to step back a few feet and funnel any mobs off to the side into that cone. That is assuming youre even in a situation where it matters if you get stunned or not.

Originally Posted by gobbosnobbo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

5. Warriors claim that stun resistance helps them keep agro on mobs, however, this is mostly a problem for under geared or fresh warriors, and no problem for Knights as they use different mechanics other than taunt to draw agro.

It is true that maybe at the very beginning of a pull, if a warrior is stunned right away without being able to use mallet to acquire agro may have a small chance of being problematic, though again statistically, this isn't likely; also, if it does happen, agro will most likely fall to another warrior, or knight doing the same thing before it is reacquired by the main tank.

To boot, agro isn't an issue for knights, and with velious stats coming out, there is literally no other reason to play an ogre, since its stat advantage will be will be nullified by gear and stat caps.

Stun immunity is still a really good reason to play an ogre in velious. As you said velious raid gear closes the stat gap so all itll come down to is racials and looks. Stun immunity blows away all the other racials imo, even iksar ac/regen. Only real advantage an iksar SK has over an ogre SK in velious is being able to keep the Soul Defiler proc up without going into HP degen.

Originally Posted by gobbosnobbo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

6. Slowed mobs bash at a severely reduced rate when slow is applied to the mob. Once this happens, the advantage of having stun resistance diminishes in correlation with the frequency of bashes over a fight.

If you're in a situation where you need to rely on stun immunity to save your life, then the mob probably isnt slowed anyway. Having a random spell interrupted now and then in regular grouping isnt a big deal at all. Where stun immunity really shines is those clutch moments where a stun can mean the difference between life and death. Its a safety net for the most part.

Originally Posted by gobbosnobbo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TL-DR : With the information gathered, I have come to what I believe is both an objective and unbiased conclusion. Other than being annoyed for 2 seconds or for spamming a cast after being interrupted by the bash, and the very slim margin it has on saving your life or regaining agro in the first 2 seconds of an engagement, Ogre stun has been vastly overrated for a while now, and the advantages of being an Ogre diminish even more-so with the introduction of velious. The truth that Ogres have an advantage over the other races due to stun resistance, such as Iksar and Troll, lies firmly seated in perception rather than reality.

Unless we're talking about aesthetics, and then I hand it to them, Ogres do look pretty neat.

Your entire point relies on this idea that stun immunity saving your life is a "slim chance" which i feel is completely incorrect. I can't say for sure since I haven't played a non ogre SK on this server very much, but I can think of tons of situations where I certainly would have died if I were to be stunned.

Remember that stun immunity doesn't just affect spellcasting, theres many situations where an actual stun can easily kill you.