Trackers in Agro Range of Raid Targets. Severilous last night, needs community input

[Ella`Ella]

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ah forget it, deleted this post. Since none of the other guilds are saying anything this isn't going to go anywhere past you and me bickering back and forth. I'll be happy to know that you guys get it and don't try to do this again.

Again, thank you for bringing this to our attention and let me know if I can help you with anything else.

[Artaenc]

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ah forget it, deleted this post. Since none of the other guilds are saying anything this isn't going to go anywhere past you and me bickering back and forth. I'll be happy to know that you guys get it and don't try to do this again.

I was on vacation and just saw this. I expect this kind of treatment when we do the exact same thing. Otherwise this is a crystal clear violation of the rules. I would say two weeks raiding suspension should fix this issue and if they try to rule lawyer it some more then take the time to look at the logs to get the mage tracker's position and add one more week per hour he/she was there.

This type of negligence of the rules is making it very difficult to enjoy playing on this server especially when guilds get away with it.

[Drakakade]

If Taken petitioned TMO for violating a clearly stated raid policy, then the responsibility for adjudicating the decision rests with the GMs who have more tools at their disposal to judge the validity of the petition than a grab bag of C and R guilds with various levels of asymmetric information.

Presumably, said GMs will also decide on whether enough evidence has been presented or the defense is adequate, and I would think any punishment would also be tailored to whether a guild had sufficient raid experience to know better or not. For example, a hapless new guild to the server might inadvertently break the rules and be granted leniency, as opposed to a more experienced guild with a robust working knowledge of the existing rules and one working to foster a better raiding environment.

Again, thank-you, Staff and Devs for P99.

[Derubael]

We don't have access to any additional information than what has been presented here by Catherin. Based on the evidence provided we would be unable to take any action against TMO. Screenshots provide little usable evidence for us, and we will rarely be comfortable handing out a guild wide suspension without significant additional evidence to support the petitioners claim. In this particular case the screenshots provided and varioous logs simply don't build enough of a case to prove a violation.

I will also add that violating a rule in order to catch someone violating a rule is generally NOT recommended, something that has come up in the past. In this particular case it wouldn't have been overly difficult to take these screenshots away from the spawnpoint (or a fraps!!). It's important to make every effort to follow the rules as closely as possible, even to catch other rulebreajers. If you
are unable to record the event yourself, please petition and at the least a Guide will usually be
available to observe and then relay their findings to the GM staff. You should never put yourself in a compromising position in order to catch a violation. Granted, in this case I would hardly consider Catherine's actions to be a violation, but the point should be clearly made that you put yourself at risk by breaking a rule to catch violaters. Two wrongs dont make a right.*

Lastly, it is up for debate as to whether or not sitting at or near sevs spawn point is a violation. Someone would need to speak with Sirken directly (likely something we will discuss tomorrow) to get a clear answer, as he holds the Lead-CSR position and the statement was atrributed to him in the first place. I only glanced briefly at what he said but I took it as more of a suggestion to keep guilds from getting in trouble rather than a hard rule. The rule itself being that trackers cannot FTE, which I do not believe was violated. This is my personal take on the situation, and likeky Sirken's intention, as we prefer to limit the number of restrictions we place on where players may stand when waiting for a spawn, the exception being the poopsock rules we currently have in place - we have always wanted to avoid that as much as possible.

[Derubael]

*Yes this is cheesey/corny, and we use this phrase too often but it is 100% true.

As a side note, I had suggested to Catherine to bring this to Raid Discussion to stay consistent with our stance of allowing the community to work disputes out on its own. For issues that affect all guilds - such as potential violations on FFA mobs - I will encourage these disputes to be discussed here on this forum whenever possible. The goal of this is twofold - in cases of clear violations with suffucient evidence, the community should be able to agree and decide on appropriate compensation and possibly further punishment to recommend to the GM staff. An example of an appropriate punishment would be the removal of loot, while an example of compensation would be the forfeitute of an FFA mob, or requiring that guild to help with Epic fights or turnins, or some other form of guild-wide 'Community-Service'.

The second goal is to receive candid and open feedback from guild leadership on the given situation. Your thoughts and opinions are valued and are often taken into consideration when they are available. Hopefully this will allow us to mediate disputes more quickly and with more information available, as it will hopefully be compiled by multiple guilds as opposed to one or two.

Any guild that would like to exercise this option may do so, but it should be noted that only guilds affected/involved will have a valid voice in regards to the end decision affecting the dispute in question. Other guilds will of course be able to voice their opinion. This option may be exercised by any guild involved in the dispute if they would prefer to make their discussion public. The GM staff of course always reserves the right to intervene at any time, but this will be used as a last resort wherefer possible. Hopefully this will create more transparency during disputes where it is needed, as well as expedite decisions and promote community cooperation.

I look forward to seeing how this affects the raid community.

~~Please excuse any typos, these two posts were made from my phone.

[-Catherin-]

Derubael

I honestly don't see how Sirken's statement of "no trackers on the spawn point period" could be interpreted any other way than how it was stated, but,

Please give me examples of:

What evidence I can provide that makes where they are standing clearer than a screenshot with a loc. I know someone on that staff knows the location of Sev and can put the pieces together with what was provided.

And how I am supposed to get something clearer than a screenshot with a loc without actually getting close enough to provide that.

Basically, what are you looking for that you consider solid? Because this will happen again. And it will keep happening until someone finally gets caught and pays for it. The last few FFA Faydedars had agro by trackers which then died and dropped the agro onto other trackers, effectively killing all the trackers. I had originally petitioned this hoping someone could actually pop in quickly and see what was going on for themselves, as that would have worked out a lot better than me providing the unrealistic proof that seems to be required (what is needed is not clear, even if I get enough then im in violation to get it)

This has been going on regularly since the first sev dispute and nobody can give anyone enough to "prove it"

[Ella`Ella]

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Derubael

I honestly don't see how Sirken's statement of "no trackers on the spawn point period" could be interpreted any other way than how it was stated, but,

Please give me examples of:

What evidence I can provide that makes where they are standing clearer than a screenshot with a loc. I know someone on that staff knows the location of Sev and can put the pieces together with what was provided.

And how I am supposed to get something clearer than a screenshot with a loc without actually getting close enough to provide that.

Basically, what are you looking for that you consider solid? Because this will happen again. And it will keep happening until someone finally gets caught and pays for it. The last few FFA Faydedars had agro by trackers which then died and dropped the agro onto other trackers, effectively killing all the trackers. I had originally petitioned this hoping someone could actually pop in quickly and see what was going on for themselves, as that would have worked out a lot better than me providing the unrealistic proof that seems to be required (what is needed is not clear, even if I get enough then im in violation to get it)

This has been going on regularly since the first sev dispute and nobody can give anyone enough to "prove it"

Catherin,

Your screenshot provides your location (not ours) and just shows a poorly drawn circle around some TMO members standing where Sev may or may not spawn in a dark zone that all looks the same. There is also no /time to show a range of time that lapsed between you making your rounds to check on the offenders. Essentially, all your screenshot shows is a single point in time where TMO member were in an indeterminable location for an indeterminate span of time. If you're looking to submit actual proof, provide a fraps with logs to sync them to, timestamps and the images of the full communication between yourself and our player, not just a photo of you sending a single tell to one of our members and then cropping his response out of your photo by scrolling up, which is apparent in your screenshot. Essentially, this petition looks more like you're trying to draw a connection saying that no player in a guild that plans on FTEing sev can have any character anywhere in the zone other than a specific, predesignated location. If that were the rule in place, then maybe your screenshots would hold some merit.

I had originally petitioned this hoping someone could actually pop in quickly and see what was going on for themselves

Again, Taken is petitioning without communicating with guild leaders, which is directly against the wishes of CSR. Catherin, this is not the first time you have failed to reach out to guild leadership and have immediately bypassed the instructions of GM's to do so and gone straight to CSR. Please observe the policies in place. Continuing to 'shoot first, ask questions later' isn't constructive to the raid environment you claim you want to improve.

Taken, specifically Catherin, is also no stranger to violating rules (re: Autofire) and then petitioning or using the claim they were only trying to make a point and then 'get-out-of-jail-free'. You claim you were just observing our behavior of being off the spawn point, but as a bard you should surely know about Bind sight? You're also not stranger to Fraps, and then of course there is the safe distance approach where you could have watched us from. None of these came into play, and it becomes apparent that you were trying to claim FTE, being KoS, for yourself and only petition if you lost? Or, if observing your previous history, you'd probably petition yourself to try and make some kind of point, although I'm not sure what point you'd be illustrating.

Finally, your petition is a gross misrepresentation of what actually happened and is also blatantly deceitful. This kind of behavior should be punished unquestioned and it's this kind of behavior in PetitionQuest that leads to GM frustration and inter-guild tensions. You claim that this happened over a period of 3 hours, however the mage in your screenshot, Pnokk, wasn't even online for the 9 hours preceding Sev's spawn. You also claim that our mage, Ferment, never responded to you, when in fact he had responded only moments later, indicating that not only had he moved, he also asked you if his new location was acceptable to you - to which you never responded. The whole claim revolves around the premise that you had been observing us for 3 hours straight, however even trackers from other guilds can verify we were all tracking on the mountain across from the spawn point together, out of aggro range (on non-KoS mages, mind you). You took a number of screenshots in a very short period of time, which included one of our mages showing a brand new mage the spawn point, and are trying to sell it as a violation of raid rules.

[-Catherin-]

This previous post is more of you saying I need to prove it. Derubael already said I did not have enough to prove it. I backed off this particular incident Move on.

I followed the protocol no matter which way you try to slice it. I just forget that you guys wrote the book on rule lawyering, and im trying to get some clear info so I can do better the next time your guild pulls the same shit.

Why are you so upset over me trying to find out clearly what the GMs want in future scenarios? Do you expect me to take your word on it?

[Ella`Ella]

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why are you so upset over me trying to find out clearly what the GMs want in future scenarios?

I'm not upset over an invalid claim and lack of proof - in that regard, I am relieved. If you think I'm upset, or if you can even call it that, it's because of your blatant deceit and manipulation against not only a member of my guild, but my guild as a whole. That kind of behavior is what deteriorates whatever fabric is left that holds this server together. If you don't see how that kind of behavior affects the community as a whole than I think you should reconsider your position in such a highly regarded guild.

If the GM's don't punish you, your guild should.

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Derubael

I honestly don't see how Sirken's statement of "no trackers on the spawn point period" could be interpreted any other way than how it was stated, but,

Please give me examples of:

What evidence I can provide that makes where they are standing clearer than a screenshot with a loc. I know someone on that staff knows the location of Sev and can put the pieces together with what was provided.

And how I am supposed to get something clearer than a screenshot with a loc without actually getting close enough to provide that.

Basically, what are you looking for that you consider solid? Because this will happen again. And it will keep happening until someone finally gets caught and pays for it. The last few FFA Faydedars had agro by trackers which then died and dropped the agro onto other trackers, effectively killing all the trackers. I had originally petitioned this hoping someone could actually pop in quickly and see what was going on for themselves, as that would have worked out a lot better than me providing the unrealistic proof that seems to be required (what is needed is not clear, even if I get enough then im in violation to get it)

This has been going on regularly since the first sev dispute and nobody can give anyone enough to "prove it"

Fraps, or some other video recording software is always best in terms of evidence. When attempting to identify "how long" someone is sitting in a particular location, using the /time command is essential - more than once if using screenshots. I have absolutely no idea how long these people were standing on the spawn point because none of your screenshots show a server time. For all I know you and the TMO trackers were standing there for the same length of time, in equal violation of what you are disputing. You have to look at these things from our standpoint, which is that we don't trust anyone - the primary reason why we ask for thorough and clear evidence of any given dispute - and that the only way we can truly objectively mediate or rule on a petition/claim is to rely solely on this evidence when making a decision. Extra corroboration through other sources such as logs, matching testimony from opposing sides, and various other presentations, while helpful, must always be carefully scrutinized and matched to other more reliable forms of evidence, like video or even in certain cases, a screenshot (or 50).

I understand that you may feel frustrated that your evidence does not sufficiently corroborate your accompanying explanation, but hopefully this will give a better idea on what is considered thorough and clear evidence in the future. While it may be easy for players to pass judgement in circumstances like these, particularly in high-stakes - or even heated encounters like we frequently see in the raid scene - we as GM's have to scrutinize very closely every piece of evidence when a decision is required by us in order to ensure we are making the right call. These decisions often affect dozens if not hundreds of players and may impact future disputes - there is a lot of pressure and expectation for us to get things correct - even though that may not even be possible with the evidence provided. It may seem abundantly clear to you what occurred, but we are very rarely present for shenanigans as they take place, even though we wish that were possible, the raid scene is only one small - but important - part of P99 CSR and we have to balance all aspects of that in addition to our real lives, just like everyone else. This is why we have to receive as much detailed information as possible that provides a clear picture of the events that prove objectively beyond a reasonable doubt who is at fault before we are going to feel comfortable laying out something as serious as an entire guilds' inability to (essentially for a Class C guild and to some extent a Class R guild) play the game, potentially for weeks at a time. We are also abundantly aware that regardless of what we decide, there will always be people upset with our interpretation or implementation of the rules and the decision those rules lead us to - this truth has always caused us to do what we feel is right, makes sense, and is fair, even if that conclusion is not the "popular" one.

Once again, video is always the best bet - record in at least 720p or in whatever format shows clear nameplates, geography, etc. or it's use may be limited. Most video recording software will timestamp videos internally on their own, but it's always good to use that in-game /time command at the beginning or end of a video in order to establish when the video was taken - this is extremely important in helping us identify where exactly the video falls within the petitions timeline.

In this particular case, I feel that you had other options of gathering the evidence in your original post, that did not involve violating the very rule that you are claiming TMO broke. This is something that everyone needs to be very careful of to ensure that they are not themselves causing an infraction. That will, at best, give the violating guild something to use against you, or at worst, cause your guild to end up with the same punishment if one is handed down. "I didn't have any other choice" is very rarely, if ever, going hold any water or be considered a valid excuse.

Lastly, as I stated in my post, it is my interpretation - and likely Sirken's intent - that his statement be taken as a strong suggestion or even a warning that standing on a mobs spawn point will probably get you in trouble, as when a mob spawns if you are there and you get aggro, you've suddenly violated the tracker rule and may be subject to punishment. Generally speaking when we make a new rule - which is what is being implied was established in this post - the new rule is very clearly acknowledged as such, oftentimes reiterated by other staff members or otherwise clearly communicated as being "law", rather than included off-hand in a forum post. Again, as I stated, I could be wrong about this and Sirken's intent in that message, but generally speaking, when a new rule is created, or a new interpretation of a rule is clarified, Sirken and I take a significant amount of time to discuss this rule, oftentimes needing approval from Rogean in order to set it in stone (if it pertains to the raid scene, Rogean approval is almost always required for a new rule). Again, you'd have to ask him to clarify his intent, I am not the Lead-CSR GM.

As stated previously, this is my stance on the situation as well as recommendations for the future, with my former post giving suggestions on how to address concerns and disputes that will inevitably arrive down the road. I feel like I was fairly clear in my posts, and that all I did here was elaborate slightly on what was stated previously. I hope that this clarifies my meaning and that your questions were sufficiently answered. I have had busy week and look forward to an even busier week catching up with p99 work, so I may just be worn out and misinterpreting the situation. That's one reason why we have two GM's, and I'm sure Sirken will give his thoughts when he is able. In the meantime, Argh made a great suggestion in the Current Raid Scene thread near/at the end that could use some thought. I'd like to continue encouraging guilds to work together whenever possible despite potential animosity during encounters like this. I think, despite some negative attitudes, is an attainable goal.

Good luck!


~deru