A reply to a thread in the Raid Discussion section.

[hynch]

Bristlebane was a pretty popular server. Just because you were level 60 did not mean you should get pixels. On BB you had to join a decent guild to raid. We had three or four real raiding guilds going during Kunark and Velious, and a handful of guilds that would team up for left overs. I will concede that Kunark was not old news quite like it is on P99, but that is beyond our control.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didnt read your whole post bc it is very long, however I dont think that doljon's stance is that outrageous. They came here to play a competitive mmo, all or most of the "tier 2" guilds refused to compete on this server bc they did not feel that the raid scene was worth the amount of effort it required.

I think you misread the OP. The point said OP is trying to make is that EQ during the classic era was not necessarily the vicious competition seen here. Yes, the mechanics do create limits in ways that instances do not. However, during classic there were far fewer high level players. And of course we all know that variance is a pure P1999 thing.

TL;DR: P1999's endgame scene is not remotely classic, contrary to what some would have you believe.

[Pint]

i didnt miss read it i just skimmed it and assumed it was another post in defense of dividing up mobs and restricting who could engage what and when. i dont honestly care how everyone raided on their own respective servers in classic, i just want this game to still require coordination and effort beyond the idea of 'today is x guild's turn to engage trakanon for 6 hours then y guild can have a shot'. all of these proposals are silly, remove the game mechanics and situations that make competing so unbearable then compete. if a guild still doesnt want to compete, then dont raid. tldr; death to rotations.

[Jarnauga]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HAEq1F0kX8

This is the only and true classic way to kill dragons.

Also BDA knocked down the towerz.

[Morgander]

I'm beginning to rather strongly believe in fact, that there are only two things that can be done to help create an actually authentic sense of competition on this server, and that's partially because this server is an emulation based on what information the development has at their disposal, and because we've too many people with too much knowledge about the current content.

The first thing we can do, is just beef up the hit points of all raid mobs. This is one of the reasons as to why Velious is a game changer. Many of the raid mobs in Velious have hundreds of thousands of hit points, versus the current 32 thousand cap we had during classic through Kunark.

I can imagine that many of the guilds on this server would not have the staying power to take out opponents such as Trakenon if he had 300,000 hit points. Even if you know what you're doing, you're going to have to have better resists and equipment, coupled with more healing power just to keep the raid force's dps up long enough before the healers are all completely drained of their mana.

Barring that this never happens (and at this point I'd love to see it tried for even a few weeks, because I believe the experiment would change the game entirely), then we simply need Velious.

Nothing short of that is going to do anything else but become a half-assed fix.

[Shiftin]

Originally Posted by Morgander [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The first thing we can do, is just beef up the hit points of all raid mobs.

Server not classic enough? CHANGE BASIC MECHANICS!

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Originally Posted by Morgander [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I really wanted to write a reply to a given post in the aforementioned section that's off limits to everyone but a select few, thus I'll do it here.

This is the section of the post in question that I wish to reply to. It was posted by Hyjal.

To completely change the direction of how the raid scene plays out just because a few people have decided to hold hands and influence these discussions undermines the efforts that have been made to make this server a classic Everquest experience. Nilbog, Rogean and the many other developers have done a wonderful job here. The population keeps growing for a reason, and yes it has affected our raiding scene, but this is not World of Warcraft although I think some of you want it to be.

And I wanted to reply to this because this kind of thinking is in itself, poisonous.

There seems to be some misdirection as per the thinking of only a single group of like-minded individuals who feel that Everquest's raid experience--for one reason or another--was somehow designed to be handled similarly to the way that said scene is handled on this server.

Now stop right there. That kind of thinking is far too bold by any light. I was a guide on the Povar server, and I played on Veeshan, the Tribunal, Morell Thule, and Firiona Vie, and on all of those servers save for maybe Veeshan because I didn't play there long enough before switching, the raid scene was nothing like it has ever been on P1999.

This mentality that because zones weren't instanced, or because mobs didn't lock to their initial target, or any such lack of a self-policing system is in no way a signifier that the developers ever even considered any type of "who's the best gets it", or even, "who gets there first gets it". This kind of competitive, brutish thinking is STRICTLY a single viewpoint, and does NOT reflect the game, period, at all, in any way, ever.

The mere notion is ludicrous. To even think for a moment--to even IMPLY for a moment that this is the case is to further invite ideologies that the developers also never intended for any forms of player conduct within the guidelines of the game.

I can assure you, that is not the case.

For this mentality to hold even a single solitary truth, one MUST also begin to accept that there then should be NO RULES, and EVERYTHING should be acceptable. ALL forms of behavior.

Kill stealing, training, ninja looting--these are just some of the things that thus must have been perfectly permissible in all contexts, because the code never accounted for these actions.

Even in the same game but in a different context, the same rules to some people, no longer seem to hold the same value. To the majority of people, the idea of honoring a camp is just part of the unofficial rules. You just honor the camps of your fellow players because it's the proper thing to do. It's socially expected of you, and even for those few who have no such respect, they still know that it's socially expected. They're just self-centered.

But change that to raiding, and so many people seem so eager to flip a switch to turn the entire social ramifications of sharing completely off. They begin to quantify this shifting in moral application with sentiments such as hard work should equate to just reward, or competition is the lifeblood of the game.

Or even worse and extremely off base: That Everquest was intended to be all about competition.

For those of you who did not play EQ from its inauguration in 1999, let me enlighten you a tad: EQ originally was nearly impossible in its initial throws when it came to mustering up a cohesive singular guild who had the manpower, class power, and ability to raid at all. Almost every single server I played on had MAYBE two guilds who could even clear the planes. On Morell Thule for example, NO guild could clear all of Sky, and it took weeks of failed Trak attempts before he was finally defeated.

It was intended that raid content would be inaccessible for a myriad of reasons, but not wholly on the basis that any one or even two guilds would have the power to defeat everything SO thoroughly that nobody else even had a chance.

No, EQ was never intended to be about throwing the cards out the window so that only the "victors" go the spoils--at least not in that regard. The world was kept free and open, free and open to allow the players the opportunity to make their own choices, just as we're given here in the US and in many democratic nations across the world.

Firearms are not illegal in this nation mind, but using them in many instances very much is, and this I would argue, is very much a good similarity.

We have the POTENTIAL to train. We CAN, as per the game's mechanics, kill steal and ninja loot, and on every server with almost no exception, developers and game masters have set up rulesets to ensure that players do not abuse these freedoms, BUT THEY DO EXIST!

I could go into detail about the nature of the magic circle concept and some such other game and virtual world concepts, but I've already said quite enough. I'd recommend looking up Richard Bartle if you're interested in some good concepts behind online world design and game theory.

In summery: This mentality that EQ is all about competition is player-made. If you want to make declaration that YOU want competition, do so with all my respect, but do not begin to assume that because you CAN compete, that EQ was always intended for strict competition for content.

It wasn't, and as a guide on live, I can tell you first-hand examples of when I or a GM had to step in and even FORCE people to share, even if it didn't directly violate a rule.

You PLAY NICE. Period. You play nice so that everyone can have fun. If your idea of fun is a form of competition that misplaces 80% of the population, then you're fun is jeopardizing too much of the majority, and unfortunately, I would always lean in the opposite direction, regardless of my personal feelings.

Just a note as well for sake of argument: I never said I was for or against the idea of competition, nor am I disputing the concept as per how fun I may or may not find it. I'm simply disputing that while EQ can be competitive, it also cannot be completely competitive, because that WILL destroy the game. In the same nature that allowing open kill stealing, ninja looting, and training would also destroy the game.

There is a very good reason why we have rules. Some rules anyway.

That's right bitches, I quoted the whole thing.

But the OP is allowing two different things to get conflated.

"Logistically" speaking, 2000 or 2001 is not 2013. True. Cut-throat competition was therefore never the norm in classic eq. False. It was as cut-throat as it could be, given the limits of postulate 1.

We just live in an age where we have to artificially -- whether rotations or instances or what the fuck ever -- impede access to contested pixels, because, we have attained the singularity or something.

[Aeaolena]

I talked to my guilds old 'The Tribunal' guild leader last night and asked him about the raiding scene during Kunark.

He said he remembers The Tribunal did have rotations for some things back in Kunark. Sure on other mobs the top two guilds butted heads from time to time, but he had good, gentlemanly relations with all the guild leaders, even the top guild at the time.

Also, he said normally when a guild was at a mob, in force... it was an unstated rule that the other guild showing up would let the first guild buff up and try with their numbers. While they were fighting, the second guild would amass numbers. If the first guild wiped, the second guild would then try. In other words - No guilds got trampled or trained the way they do here on P1999.

I also remember our RnF board in those days.. and it was usually about taunting guilds who didn't have the skill to kill such and such yet. They taunted over the actual competitive nature of the game, as far as I can remember.. not how good they were at cockblocking..

[sabinrf24]

Originally Posted by Aeaolena

I also remember our RnF board in those days.. and it was usually about taunting guilds who didn't have the skill to kill such and such yet. They taunted over the actual competitive nature of the game, as far as I can remember.. not how good they were at cockblocking..

This is how I remember things as well. This game is about the challenge of overcoming content, for me. I realize that content has become easy for some groups of people, and that the only challenge remaining for them is to compete for FTE. It's a shame that this FTE competition means that another portion of the population can't challenge themselves and try boss fights without the added overhead of jumping through the hoops of also competing for FTE.

[Aeaolena]

Originally Posted by sabinrf24 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is how I remember things as well. This game is about the challenge of overcoming content, for me. I realize that content has become easy for some groups of people, and that the only challenge remaining for them is to compete for FTE. It's a shame that this FTE competition means that another portion of the population can't challenge themselves and try boss fights without the added overhead of jumping through the hoops of also competing for FTE.

Exactly. I would use the analogy that this game is like a game of vintage ring toss. The true skill of it is in the eye coordination of the toss, and getting it around the stake.

However, some players have put an overhead (ie. covering the rings in feces)... This is disturbing to anyone else who would choose to play for skill, who remembers how this vintage game is supposed to be played.. And doesn't wish to get arm-deep in defecation. So here in this scenario.. 7/9 raid forces are choosing to sit out and not play at all.

That is not loving competition.. That is simply the art of preventing competition. And I would venture to say this aspect is not classic at all for the majority of players here.