Druid vs. Enchanter

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by A1551 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Honestly, I'm a bit biased too, but enchanter is a vastly more dynamic, adaptable, overpowered, and most importantly, FUN class to play. Since getting 60 on my chanter I've tried a lot of other classes, and compared to the functionality of an enchanter honestly they all feel like only half a class (in many cases much less!).

100% agree. I think the only really comparable class is the Shaman, and to some extent the Necromancer (a poor man's enchanter where it counts, but with a few nice extra tricks).

[SirAlvarex]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

100% agree. I think the only really comparable class is the Shaman, and to some extent the Necromancer (a poor man's enchanter where it counts, but with a few nice extra tricks).

It's funny, because after playing a Bard to 56, all I can think of when playing other classes is how underpowered they are. A Shaman and Enchanter can solo pretty well thanks to long duration charm/slow, but nothing gives me the feeling of having complete control over a groups ability to succeed as much as a Bard.

[Clark]

Originally Posted by SirAlvarex [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's funny, because after playing a Bard to 56, all I can think of when playing other classes is how underpowered they are. A Shaman and Enchanter can solo pretty well thanks to long duration charm/slow, but nothing gives me the feeling of having complete control over a groups ability to succeed as much as a Bard.

The hasted/dual wielding charm pet ontop of everything else is what makes Ench more OP.

Bards are still awesome though; not enough of them endgame.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by SirAlvarex [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's funny, because after playing a Bard to 56, all I can think of when playing other classes is how underpowered they are. A Shaman and Enchanter can solo pretty well thanks to long duration charm/slow, but nothing gives me the feeling of having complete control over a groups ability to succeed as much as a Bard.

Have you played an enchanter at 55+?

The fact that you say shamans and enchanters can solo "pretty well" makes me think you have no idea what either of them can actually do at high levels, whether solo OR grouped.

[Splorf22]

Bards are fun, although a lot of work. But in the end bards are gimp enchanters when it comes to control spells.

[Splorf22]

I played a bard to 38. They are a ton of fun for sure (of course I had a fungi tunic, so I was tanking quite a bit. It was almost like playing both of my toons at once). I think bards and enchanters are pretty close except for charm:

* Bards get slightly better mana regen, and HP regen too, and more/better group buffs
* Bard lull is not resisted nearly as much
* Bards can put out a bit of melee damage
* Bard 'cc' is charm and that can put out some melee damage as well
* Bards with their plate armor additional hitpoints are tougher than enchanters
* Selos is badass outdoors

* Enchanters get better haste
* Enchanters get ae mez
* Enchanters can lockdown 6-10 targets compared to 3 for a bard
* Enchanters get 4 slot dispell
* Enchanters get much better slow
* Enchanters do much better with high MR mobs with tash+longer duration spells
* Enchanters get stuns - lots and lots of stuns

Where the train goes completely off the tracks is when the enchanter starts charming a pet that puts out 100+ dps while still having enough mana to keep doing CC, buffs, and even a few debuffs. Basically as long as there are caster mobs around to tap and mobs that are low enough level to charm reliably, enchanters are just better.

Of course in PVP and for raid targets bards do much better: the charmed pets are feared or dispelled, and the nutty good bard resist buffs are extremely important.

[SirAlvarex]

Enchanters definitely get better haste from a per % standpoint. But Bard Epic haste adds +30 to attack (according to wiki...can't get my epic till Undead Bard), and Bards also get Haste v2 in Velious, which might not really matter that much since everyone on this server is already geared to the point where they can already reach max haste.

No doubt a chanter can keep 10 mobs locked down pretty well, but a Bard can keep 6 locked down indefinitely since mez doesn't take any mana. They can also get rez'd in a raid and immediately go into CC mode while a chanter has to have something to tap before they can get started.

You guys know your chanters, so I won't mention the obvious awesomeness they posses, however you missed out on a few things Bards have that chanters don't quite have access to:

* Buff resists by over 80 (150 for magic)
* An unlimited target AE snare/slow/fear, which makes it possible to snap aggro a train to save your guild during a raid (think Fear raids)
* Unlimited target AE DoTs, which as everyone already realizes allows for pretty quick leveling
* Group DA (haven't reach 60 yet, so not quite sure how awesome this one is)
* 3-second manaless mez, which doubles as a casting mob stopper (assuming no-resists, which I assume Chanters would have to deal with aswell?)
* Can cast said spells/song on the run, which isn't as big a deal for some of the better chanters who know how to use AE stun, but it's a big deal in lower level groups (pre-50)
* Until the next patch, can single pull any mob that can't see through hide.
* Until the next patch, can sneak/hide/invis through dungeons like a rogue for CR's
* Highsun is important for finding placeholders in large outdoor zones (Quillmane cycle, Skyfire Named cycle)
* Single Target Debuffs for each resist type.
* They have track

As for the dispell, Bards get a group dispell (which I've never used) and a 4-slot single target dispell. Or atleast according to the spell data it's 4-slot.

Does chanter lull require Line of Sight? Never tried it, but bard lull doesn't require a LoS.

And Chanters have the winning formula on stuns. There are 2 AE stuns right? Bards only get 1, and it's at 59.

But yeah, I basically mentioned "how to use the tools" while mostly the things mentioned so far is "what are their tools", as I'm sure enchanters can stack some of their debuffs/stuns in a way that make others just hang their head in shame.

And no, I'm not saying Chanters suck. Nor am I saying Bards are better, because obviously I won't convince anyone of that hah. But a well played Bard can do just as well in a non-solo environment [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] . They can do a little bit of everything that's required.

Well, that's mostly because I never really tried to solo in dungeons...but with a well timed bard charm I did alright in testing in LGuk.

Seriously tho, didn't mean to turn this into a Bard thread, just wanted to point out the omission in the list of OP classes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by SirAlvarex [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

* Buff resists by over 80 (150 for magic)
* An unlimited target AE snare/slow/fear, which makes it possible to snap aggro a train to save your guild during a raid (think Fear raids)
* Unlimited target AE DoTs, which as everyone already realizes allows for pretty quick leveling
* Group DA (haven't reach 60 yet, so not quite sure how awesome this one is)
* 3-second manaless mez, which doubles as a casting mob stopper (assuming no-resists, which I assume Chanters would have to deal with aswell?)
* Can cast said spells/song on the run, which isn't as big a deal for some of the better chanters who know how to use AE stun, but it's a big deal in lower level groups (pre-50)
* Until the next patch, can single pull any mob that can't see through hide.
* Until the next patch, can sneak/hide/invis through dungeons like a rogue for CR's
* Highsun is important for finding placeholders in large outdoor zones (Quillmane cycle, Skyfire Named cycle)
* Single Target Debuffs for each resist type.
* They have track

I didn't miss these things, Sir. I've had a bard higher level on the p99 than you have! But these aren't things that are very relevant to the vast majority of groups, and that's what you were talking about when this chanter vs. bard discussion started.

Bards are powerful in limited situations where their group needs most of the bard's key abilities, and they can manage to fit into a group that already is very solid. That's not the definition of being overpowered, though. That's probably more like "properly balanced."

[SirAlvarex]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didn't miss these things, Sir. I've had a bard higher level on the p99 than you have! But these aren't things that are very relevant to the vast majority of groups, and that's what you were talking about when this chanter vs. bard discussion started.

Haha, not quite [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I was pointing at the versatility a Bard gives to a group made them feel more powerful to me. IE I feel like if a group has a need, as a Bard I can step up and take care of business (except healing and tanking uber mobs).

But I'll stop now. I derailed the thread and didn't mean to do that.

--edit
Missed your edit. I think then that the disagreement comes down to how we perceive the power. I think our last two posts is a great example of us both being on the same page, but with different conclusions. IE I feel like a jack-of-all-trades exhibits more overall power for a group, while the chanters ability to CC/Charm makes them extremely powerful at destroying a mobs HP...plus regen/haste/mez.

[Splorf22]

What is irritating Tecmos and me is that you are like 'yeah, enchanters can charm' and then moving on when in reality the argument should be 'enchanters have long duration charm, therefore nothing else matters'

edit: I should also mention when I did my class selection guide, it ended up being enchanters, monks and shaman are OP, rangers, paladins, druids, and wizards are weak, and everything else is in the middle. Note that this is an average over all situations; in the right situations any class is fantastic.