Alter End-Game Mechanics

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious will bring its own set of problems/issues to deal with:

Which we can't address until velious

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by fischsemmel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

... And I guess that having a 1-hour window of spawns once one mob does spawn would also not help to reduce the tracking requirements as much, since you couldn't just have 1 tracker watching 1 of the 7-day mobs and then when it pops you know they are ALL up.

I'm concerned about this too. But it's not that big of a deal and it's not that far off from classic - in 2000 knowing that one 7-day mob spawned usually meant that another had either spawned already or was on its way very soon, because server resets caused mobs to die around the same time (and therefore respawn around the same time). Also server resets (both on Live and on p99) allow you to know that all mobs are up if one is up, and that's classic too (so here if there's a patch, I can check if Vox is up, and if she is, I can be pretty sure that all the other mobs are up too, meaning I don't necessarily need a tracker in every zone).

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All of these ideas would take away from velious development, ...

I'm not sure what you're saying, could you clarify?

[porigromus]

This thread is classic Everquest. Thank you for bringing me back to 2000 once again! These same issues were recognized and discussed then as well.

[fadetree]

Well, except in this situation we have a real chance to realize some of the ideas...back then, SoE wasn't listening.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by fadetree [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, except in this situation we have a real chance to realize some of the ideas...back then, SoE wasn't listening.

Back then it was Verant!

[finalgrunt]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am still interested in hearing proposals for better end game systems. In the past, I have tried to comment on the ones I thought were good and still in the spirit of classic, non-instanced raiding.

If there was a perfect system in which raid targets spawned simultaneously within a certain window:

• Would guilds still poopsock?
• Would a single guild still get most of the targets?

From what I've seen, raiding guilds on p99 have far greater numbers than were historically on my eqlive server. I would hate to make a system that somehow made things worse :T

Anyways, keep up the proposals. Hopefully something is suggested that supports more guilds getting targets without diminishing competition.

Here is my proposal:

Facts:

- On many live servers, competition was never what it is here (ridiculously hardcore), because raiding playerbase was much smaller.
- On many live servers, there was a rotation going for many targets, and EQ was still considered a hard game which needed investment. Also because somehow back then, guild leaders knew about playing nice and fairplay.

Proposition

GMs from this server write down a list (which can be updated by them) of the bosses and give each of them one of the following status:

Status could be:

[Rotation] which means the boss is put to rotation. Rules are:
- any guild can ask to pass a test to enter the rotation. Target will be spawned by a GM, no loot will be received from that event of course. GMs will decide if it's a number of attempts or amount of time required to "clear" the test.
- guilds who are granted a kill due to rotation rights have 2 attempts max or an hour before it's open to other guilds who are part of the rotation on a FTE basis (see below).

[Tiered Rotation] which means the boss is put to rotation too but this time, it's left to the player base to come to an agreement which are the requirements to enter/leave the rotation.
- guilds who are granted a kill due to rotation rights still have 2 attempts max or an hour before it's open to other guilds who are part of the rotation on a FTE basis (see below).

[Contested] which means open to race / competition on a FTE basis (see below).

FTE rule changed to:

Each guild appoints a raid leader who must now claim engagement. There will be 2 shouts from that person:

First one requires at least 10 members from guild/alliance to be in the target's zone: "<Guild Name> is willing to be part of the hunt for <Target>". It notifies any other guild that they are now part of the effective rotation.

"<Guild Name> is engaging the target now!" which announces for a FTE claim.

From this point, the guild must engage under a minute.
If the guild engages under a minute and kills the target, grats. If it's a wipe, other guilds can claim engagement, as long as they also engage under a minute and the target is back to full health when they do so.
If a guild fails to engage under a minute, it loses one turn and must wait for the next guild to claim FTE and do its attempt. This rule stops applying if 10 minutes have passed without an engage from any competiting guild.

Punishment
Failing the rules will result in a 15 days raid ban guild wise.

Variance
Will be removed.

Example 1 (overly complicated, to show the boundaries):

Gorenaire is set this month to [Contested] and spawns.
TMO races and are first in the zone. As long as no other guild / alliance shows up with 15 players, they can't claim to be on the rotation, and TMO may have as many attempts as they want.
BDA has got 15 players in the zone, and thei raid leader shouts:
"<BDA> is willing to be part of the hunt for <Gorenaire>".
From that moment, TMO raid leader or BDA leaders must now shout their respective engagements before going in.
Let's say TMO shouts for engage and fails again. There is still no restriction.
Divinity enters the raid scene, and shouts for rotation inclusion and are gathering their raid forces.
TMO thinks BDA is about to engage but they're not totally ready, so TMo shouts for engage, but can't engage immediatly. More than a minute passes with no engage from TMO, they lose their turn and can't engage. Either BDA or Divinity now have 10 minutes to claim their FTE, or TMO can go again. BDA engages but is wiping.
TMO claims again FTE before Divinity, as BDA is losing their members. TMO here gambles that BDA will have wiped and Gorenaire will be back to full health under a minute.
BDA tanks & healers heroicly survive more than a minute, and TMO lost it's gamble, the "lost turn or 10 minutes" rule applies again.
Divinity claims FTE after 5 minutes, and kills the target.

Example 2:

Venril Sathir is set this month to [Rotation] and spawns. BDA is the guild which has got engage rights. BDA takes some time to gather and buff, and do their first attempt after 45 minutes. The hour mark is hit, and BDA is not ready to go again. TMO shouts for rotation inclusion, and immediatly shouts again for FTE. They wipe. As BDA is about to shouts for FTE, TMO shouts for FTE again as they rush back to the room. They are allowed to so since they engaged under a minute the previous attempt, and kill it.

If the logic here is flawed lemme know.

Why would this be good?
It's easily monitored by players themselves, and GMs won't have to watch if they don't want to. It allows for competition and casual friendly environment. Like on live, mind you.
Also this system is very flexible (easily customized) to reflect what the GMs/devs want to do with their server by putting the status they want, what tests must be passed, and how much they'll have to manage the rotations (them or the player base).

[Callnoutthenewbs]

Originally Posted by finalgrunt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here is my proposal:

Facts:

- On many live servers, competition was never what it is here (ridiculously hardcore), because raiding playerbase was much smaller.
- On many live servers, there was a rotation going for many targets, and EQ was still considered a hard game which needed investment. Also because somehow back then, guild leaders knew about playing nice and fairplay.

Proposition

GMs from this server write down a list (which can be updated by them) of the bosses and give each of them one of the following status:

Status could be:

[Rotation] which means the boss is put to rotation. Rules are:
- any guild can ask to pass a test to enter the rotation. Target will be spawned by a GM, no loot will be received from that event of course. GMs will decide if it's a number of attempts or amount of time required to "clear" the test.
- guilds who are granted a kill due to rotation rights have 2 attempts max or an hour before it's open to other guilds who are part of the rotation on a FTE basis (see below).

[Tiered Rotation] which means the boss is put to rotation too but this time, it's left to the player base to come to an agreement which are the requirements to enter/leave the rotation.
- guilds who are granted a kill due to rotation rights still have 2 attempts max or an hour before it's open to other guilds who are part of the rotation on a FTE basis (see below).

[Contested] which means open to race / competition on a FTE basis (see below).

FTE rule changed to:

Each guild appoints a raid leader who must now claim engagement. There will be 2 shouts from that person:

First one requires at least 10 members from guild/alliance to be in the target's zone: "<Guild Name> is willing to be part of the hunt for <Target>". It notifies any other guild that they are now part of the effective rotation.

"<Guild Name> is engaging the target now!" which announces for a FTE claim.

From this point, the guild must engage under a minute.
If the guild engages under a minute and kills the target, grats. If it's a wipe, other guilds can claim engagement, as long as they also engage under a minute and the target is back to full health when they do so.
If a guild fails to engage under a minute, it loses one turn and must wait for the next guild to claim FTE and do its attempt. This rule stops applying if 10 minutes have passed without an engage from any competiting guild.

Killing a raid target even after failing the minute engagement will result in a 15 days raid ban guild wise.

Example 1:

Gorenaire is set this month to [Contested] and spawns.
TMO races and are first in the zone. As long as no other guild / alliance shows up with 15 players, they can't claim to be on the rotation, and TMO may have as many attempts as they want.
BDA has got 15 players in the zone, and thei raid leader shouts:
"<BDA> is willing to be part of the hunt for <Gorenaire>".
From that moment, TMO raid leader or BDA leaders must now shout their respective engagements before going in.
Let's say TMO shouts for engage and fails again. There is still no restriction.
Divinity enters the raid scene, and shouts for rotation inclusion and are gathering their raid forces.
TMO thinks BDA is about to engage but they're not totally ready, so TMo shouts for engage, but can't engage immediatly. More than a minute passes with no engage from TMO, they lose their turn and can't engage. Either BDA or Divinity now have 10 minutes to claim their FTE, or TMO can go again. BDA engages but is wiping.
TMO claims again FTE before Divinity, as BDA is losing their members. TMO here gambles that BDA will have wiped and Gorenaire will be back to full health under a minute.
BDA tanks & healers heroicly survive more than a minute, and TMO lost it's gamble, the "lost turn or 10 minutes" rule applies again.
Divinity claims FTE after 5 minutes, and kills the target.

Example 2:

Venril Sathir is set this month to [Rotation] and spawns. BDA is the guild which has got engage rights. BDA takes some time to gather and buff, and do their first attempt after 45 minutes. The hour mark is hit, and BDA is not ready to go again. TMO shouts for rotation inclusion, and immediatly shouts again for FTE. They wipe. As BDA is about to shouts for FTE, TMO shouts for FTE again as they rush back to the room. They are allowed to so since they engaged under a minute the previous attempt, and kill it.

If the logic here is flawed lemme know.

Why would this be good?
It's easily monitored by players themselves, and GMs won't have to watch if they don't want to. It allows for competition and casual friendly environment. Like on live, mind you.
Also this system is very flexible (easily customized) to reflect what the GMs/devs want to do with their server by putting the status they want, what tests must be passed, and how much they'll have to manage the rotations (them or the player base).

Read this and it just sounds like a headace to be honest.

[finalgrunt]

Read this and it just sounds like a headace to be honest.

Well it's not RnF material for sure, and if you don't plan on being a raid leader, you won't have to bother, just wait for engage order [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Callnoutthenewbs]

1 thing Im getting from this thread is that there clearly is a problem with the endgame raiding game even though TMO members will say different.

Something clearly needs to be done to improve the server for the better and help these small guilds get more raid targets

I know of alot of people that are level 60 with very little motivation to even play anymore cause
they refuse to join TMO from having past faggotery shit happen to them/guild ie tmo training and just plain being complete and total assfucks with no class.

I am glad alot of the other guilds refuse to do shit like tmo, thats what EQ is about playing together and not being a classless whore doing anything they want to get pixels over another guild.

Im glad alot of people will see and read this thread and see TMO are classless idoits that will run over your guild and use any dirty trick in the book to get pixels.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by finalgrunt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here is my proposal:

Facts:

- On many live servers, competition was never what it is here (ridiculously hardcore), because raiding playerbase was much smaller.
- On many live servers, there was a rotation going for many targets, and EQ was still considered a hard game which needed investment. Also because somehow back then, guild leaders knew about playing nice and fairplay.

Proposition

GMs from this server write down a list (which can be updated by them) of the bosses and give each of them one of the following status:

Status could be:

[Rotation] which means the boss is put to rotation. Rules are:
- any guild can ask to pass a test to enter the rotation. Target will be spawned by a GM, no loot will be received from that event of course. GMs will decide if it's a number of attempts or amount of time required to "clear" the test.
- guilds who are granted a kill due to rotation rights have 2 attempts max or an hour before it's open to other guilds who are part of the rotation on a FTE basis (see below).

[Tiered Rotation] which means the boss is put to rotation too but this time, it's left to the player base to come to an agreement which are the requirements to enter/leave the rotation.
- guilds who are granted a kill due to rotation rights still have 2 attempts max or an hour before it's open to other guilds who are part of the rotation on a FTE basis (see below).

[Contested] which means open to race / competition on a FTE basis (see below).

FTE rule changed to:

Each guild appoints a raid leader who must now claim engagement. There will be 2 shouts from that person:

First one requires at least 10 members from guild/alliance to be in the target's zone: "<Guild Name> is willing to be part of the hunt for <Target>". It notifies any other guild that they are now part of the effective rotation.

"<Guild Name> is engaging the target now!" which announces for a FTE claim.

From this point, the guild must engage under a minute.
If the guild engages under a minute and kills the target, grats. If it's a wipe, other guilds can claim engagement, as long as they also engage under a minute and the target is back to full health when they do so.
If a guild fails to engage under a minute, it loses one turn and must wait for the next guild to claim FTE and do its attempt. This rule stops applying if 10 minutes have passed without an engage from any competiting guild.

Punishment
Failing the rules will result in a 15 days raid ban guild wise.

Variance
Will be removed.

Example 1 (overly complicated, to show the boundaries):

Gorenaire is set this month to [Contested] and spawns.
TMO races and are first in the zone. As long as no other guild / alliance shows up with 15 players, they can't claim to be on the rotation, and TMO may have as many attempts as they want.
BDA has got 15 players in the zone, and thei raid leader shouts:
"<BDA> is willing to be part of the hunt for <Gorenaire>".
From that moment, TMO raid leader or BDA leaders must now shout their respective engagements before going in.
Let's say TMO shouts for engage and fails again. There is still no restriction.
Divinity enters the raid scene, and shouts for rotation inclusion and are gathering their raid forces.
TMO thinks BDA is about to engage but they're not totally ready, so TMo shouts for engage, but can't engage immediatly. More than a minute passes with no engage from TMO, they lose their turn and can't engage. Either BDA or Divinity now have 10 minutes to claim their FTE, or TMO can go again. BDA engages but is wiping.
TMO claims again FTE before Divinity, as BDA is losing their members. TMO here gambles that BDA will have wiped and Gorenaire will be back to full health under a minute.
BDA tanks & healers heroicly survive more than a minute, and TMO lost it's gamble, the "lost turn or 10 minutes" rule applies again.
Divinity claims FTE after 5 minutes, and kills the target.

Example 2:

Venril Sathir is set this month to [Rotation] and spawns. BDA is the guild which has got engage rights. BDA takes some time to gather and buff, and do their first attempt after 45 minutes. The hour mark is hit, and BDA is not ready to go again. TMO shouts for rotation inclusion, and immediatly shouts again for FTE. They wipe. As BDA is about to shouts for FTE, TMO shouts for FTE again as they rush back to the room. They are allowed to so since they engaged under a minute the previous attempt, and kill it.

If the logic here is flawed lemme know.

Why would this be good?
It's easily monitored by players themselves, and GMs won't have to watch if they don't want to. It allows for competition and casual friendly environment. Like on live, mind you.
Also this system is very flexible (easily customized) to reflect what the GMs/devs want to do with their server by putting the status they want, what tests must be passed, and how much they'll have to manage the rotations (them or the player base).

You obviously put a lot of thought into this and that is to be respected, but this would kill guilds and kill community. Most of the targets can be killed woth sgnificantly less numbers than tmo or bda bring to raids. This would cause large communities of friends to splinter into smaller guilds. Ill type a more detailed and cogent response when I get home