AC softcap and low level hardcap discussion

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What your data shows is that 198 worn AC + 61 Spell AC does not hit the softcap for Druids. At this point we need to find the softcaps. I can work on that since I have the AC. Priest softcaps should be the same.

My data does not show that. It raises that question. I realize how pedantic this sounds, but an experiment cannot result in a conclusion that it was not attempting to answer. I agree that at this point we need to find the softcaps, but my experiment does not answer that question, it raises that question. Not exactly a rigorous source, but here's a comic addressing a similar topic: https://xkcd.com/882/

Any speculation on results before I analyze the parse I did with and without Bladecoat?

Edit: to be clear, that experiment I did was not with 198 worn AC, because I was removing various slots for each parse. I usually have prexus totem equipped, but took that off to free up a slot, then removed 23 ac either via lodi shield or whatever else. I also added 1 ac by upgrading a bracer, so I think that puts it at 171 worn ac + 61 spell ac.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My data does not show that. It raises that question. I realize how pedantic this sounds, but an experiment cannot result in a conclusion that it was not attempting to answer. I agree that at this point we need to find the softcaps, but my experiment does not answer that question, it raises that question. Not exactly a rigorous source, but here's a comic addressing a similar topic: https://xkcd.com/882/

Any speculation on results before I analyze the parse I did with and without Bladecoat?

Data is data. Your data supports the softcap theory.

No speculations right now. I haven't done much spell AC testing.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Data is data. Your data supports the softcap theory.

No speculations right now. I haven't done much spell AC testing.

My data supports the softcap hypothesis. A theory has been confirmed by experiments done to test the hypothesis. But we're not going to resolve that philosophical difference in this thread so I'll try not to keep harping on it too much [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With bladecoat (37 ac on wiki):
988 hits
41.155 dmg/hit

Without bladecoat (wearing crystal chitin gauntlets and gladiator's chain leggings):
826 hits
43.393 dmg/hit

Looks like it's worth further investigation!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Edit: to be clear, that experiment I did was not with 198 worn AC, because I was removing various slots for each parse. I usually have prexus totem equipped, but took that off to free up a slot, then removed 23 ac either via lodi shield or whatever else. I also added 1 ac by upgrading a bracer, so I think that puts it at 171 worn ac + 61 spell ac.

Thanks for clarifying. So you were even further from any possible softcap. That makes sense.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Did a few more tests to hone in where the softcap is:

========================
223 AC Test, No Shield Secondary
========================

DV, Count
19, 340
22, 33
25, 36
28, 40
32, 40
35, 27
38, 38
42, 42
45, 41
48, 28
52, 31
55, 47
58, 37
62, 29
65, 28
68, 26
72, 40
75, 37
78, 46
82, 14

Total Damage = 39948

=======================
223 AC Test, Lodi Shield Secondary
=======================

DV, Count
19, 341
22, 32
25, 35
28, 36
32, 40
35, 26
38, 33
42, 33
45, 31
48, 37
52, 31
55, 39
58, 42
62, 44
65, 43
68, 38
72, 42
75, 35
78, 37
82, 5

Total Damage = 40312

=======================
235 AC Test, Lodi Shield Secondary
=======================
DV, Count
19, 366
22, 33
25, 36
28, 35
32, 40
35, 36
38, 34
42, 39
45, 27
48, 31
52, 35
55, 36
58, 23
62, 42
65, 47
68, 35
72, 35
75, 31
78, 30
82, 9

Total Damage = 38829

=======================
250 AC Test, Lodi Shield Secondary
=======================

DV, Count
19, 370
22, 53
25, 36
28, 43
32, 32
35, 25
38, 29
42, 24
45, 25
48, 39
52, 21
55, 31
58, 35
62, 24
65, 33
68, 44
72, 41
75, 40
78, 41
82, 14

Total Damage = 39056

======================
250 AC Test, No Shield Secondary
======================

DV, Count
19, 333
22, 25
25, 23
28, 39
32, 35
35, 36
38, 46
42, 54
45, 30
48, 22
52, 44
55, 44
58, 32
62, 40
65, 35
68, 39
72, 40
75, 38
78, 39
82, 6

Total Damage = 40581

We can see that the 223 AC tests show the same pattern that Bcbrown saw, where the shield parse matches the non-shield parse. This makes sense, as Bcbrown said he had 171 worn AC + 61 Spell AC = 232 AC. While we are still not sure exactly how spell AC works, this total value is in the ball park.

Once we get to 250 AC, the shield parse starts to become better than the non-shield parse. The 235 AC shield parse shows basically no difference compared to the 250 AC shield parse.

This means the softcap for Shamans (and probably Druids/Clerics as well) is between 223 AC and 235 AC.

I believe the softcap returns may be 0.17 for Shaman, which is the EQEMU value for low chain classes. This would be like Shaman and Ranger.

This is because in my 363 AC Tests, my no shield parse is 39K damage with 380 minimum hits.

The 250 AC test with a shield in this post is 39K and close to 380 minimum hits. 23 AC is Shield AC, so taking that out would give us 227 AC. 363 AC - 227 AC = ~136 softcapped AC * 0.17 = ~23 AC, which is roughly the same AC as my shield. This suggests that 136 softcapped AC gave me the equivalent of ~23 worn AC.

[kjs86z2]

you can do it DSM

we believe in you

[Goregasmic]

What jumps at me is you save about 1.5khp over a thousand hits with the shield past the cap, which is sub 4%? Seems like you'd have better mitigation with quicker kills using a 2hand/DW.

Only real reason I see using a shield is maybe for raid encounters where a max hit round could 1shot the MT. It would lower the chances of getting such a round but I'm a non raider, wouldn't surprise me if MTs didn't bother at this point.

[sammoHung]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What jumps at me is you save about 1.5khp over a thousand hits with the shield past the cap, which is sub 4%? Seems like you'd have better mitigation with quicker kills using a 2hander.

Only real reason I see using a shield is maybe for raid encounters where a max hit round could 1shot the MT. It would lower the chances of getting such a round but I'm a non raider, wouldn't surprise me if MTs didn't bother at this point.

Agreed. In later xpacs, like GoD and OoW: Sword and Board was the preferred warrior MT setup. But that was with shields that had like 100AC and also Shield Block AA which allowed warriors to completely block incoming attacks with shield equipped.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What jumps at me is you save about 1.5khp over a thousand hits with the shield past the cap, which is sub 4%? Seems like you'd have better mitigation with quicker kills using a 2hand/DW.

Only real reason I see using a shield is maybe for raid encounters where a max hit round could 1shot the MT. It would lower the chances of getting such a round but I'm a non raider, wouldn't surprise me if MTs didn't bother at this point.

I believe the final value is closer to 2k damage according to my 363 AC tests:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=162

I think it was 1.5k on the 250 AC test because I wasn't that far above the softcap. But it could be a bit of RNG as well.

Assuming a 46 AC shield would double this value, a higher AC shield like whitestone shield at 39 AC would reduce damage by (39 / 46) * 4000 damage = 3388 damage.

That would be more like 8% for a Warrior with a 39 AC shield perhaps, but this is just a guess.

[Snaggles]

There is some rumor that Vulak axe ac acts like a shield. Or at least I’ve heard it floated once. Unfortunately there aren’t any 80 AC shields to use to test this, nor do I have a Vulak axe.

My pally does have a Rocksmasher which has 25 ac and I can borrow my Druids sarnak shield. Just a FYI it’s in the queue but I’m not sure when I’ll be able to get that done.