Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[fortior]

the size of your ego is only surpassed by the size of your victim complex

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the size of your ego is only surpassed by the size of your victim complex

You have no basis to suggest I have a big ego, or a victim complex.

Unlike yourself and other posters, I am not the one saying "I am right, you are wrong, and I don't have to prove it". I provide evidence to support my position, because I do not think my word alone is enough.

You can look at this thread and others like it. You'll see I am disproportionately attacked by the same people every time. I don't have a victim complex. I just state the fact that trolls and bullies are attacking me with baseless claims. There is no way you can deny this by looking back at the post history. Being unsubtle has it's consequences. The funny thing is they still lose, even in a 10 v 1.

[Tann]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have no basis to suggest I have a big ego, or a victim complex.

100% unwillingness to admit to being wrong I believe falls into the big ego category. I need not provide evidence, there is plenty in this thread alone and besides, you wouldn't believe it anyway [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Tann [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

100% unwillingness to admit to being wrong I believe falls into the big ego category. I need not provide evidence, there is plenty in this thread alone and besides, you wouldn't believe it anyway [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Except I have admitted I am wrong plenty of times on these forums. Perpetuating lies about other posters is not good behavior.

You are making baseless claims and refusing to admit you are wrong about them in this very post.

It is strange that you seem to think I must admit I am wrong in every thread, otherwise you believe I never admit I am wrong. It makes no sense. If I am not wrong, why would I admit to that?

[Troxx]

I'm going out on a limb here and I will try a different angle. I am doing so in the least "troll" way possible.

Dear DSM,

I understand your point of view. This does not mean I agree with the totality of all your views, but I understand it. At the root source, you are not wrong on this. Your math shows it, but any of us who have played and know this game knows it is a true thing. Your point on this subject is VALID.

Your point:

Once you are 60 torpor is so stupidly OP that you don't need more regen ... or any regen at all. This is a TRUE statement. It is objective. You know it. I know it. We all know it. Torpor is so ludicrously OP that you could have -15hp/tick regen and it wouldn't matter much. You are still always full mana and always full health if you maintain and work to keep it up.

This is not up for debate.

A level 60 shaman with torpor doesn't need regen anymore.
I agree.
You agree.
We all agree!
They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp
They don't have to obsess about keeping regrowth up - it is LESS (but not entirely) relevent.
It's why a barbarian shaman at 60 functions so well. If regen was that important, a barbarian shaman would not be successful - but they are.

There is no disagreement here.

You and I both (and we all) understand the power of Torpor: 200 mana (before specialization) heals 1200-1500hp on a class that converts hp to mana = limitless mana.

Where is the disconnect?

I feel that you personally put too much emphasis on the value of the ability to avoid being stunned on an attack that has a 25% chance to land every 8 seconds from a mob hitting you. Beyond that, if they DO land a BASH on you - it doesn't actually trigger a stun all of the time.

Your point:

The ability to avoid any bash stun is superior to innate regen.

My counter:

Bash *stuns* are actually not that common for 99.9% of game play. The marginal benefit you might get from avoiding said stun is insufficient to the global benefit of always having racial regen.

Discussion:

Truths:
-You don't need FSI to win encounters a shaman
-You don't need innate regen to win encounters as a shaman
-You can be 100% as successful with neither regen nor FSI

My perspective:

-Bashes have a 25% chance to hit every 8 seconds and most of the time the bash does not result in a *stun* for which you would get any benefit from if you had FSI.
-If slowed, this potential occurrence is less frequent

-In order for FSI to be worth any significant tradeoff a few criteria need to be met

A) the mob is hitting you and not somebody else (or rooted ... or on a pet)
B) the mob has to actually bash you (25% every 8 sec if not slowed)
C) the mob has to bash you during the exact moment you were trying to cast a spell
D) said bash has to interrupt your spell and annoy you with 1-2 secs of waiting to "try again"
E) that spell was actually important in a meaningful, game changing, or encounter-altering way
F) the timing of said bash and interrupt had to have an IMPACT on the outcome of the fight.

If all criteria are met - FSI has value at that exact moment in time.
For all other moments in time - FSI did not not change the outcome.

So yes ... I do agree that FSI has usefulness.

But!

I acknowledge that all of the above is the perfect *bad storm*

I just solo'd 29 mobs on my level 56 ranger and had one stun for the whole lot that was from a bash.

So ... a racial regen that is 100% useful anytime you are less than 100% health vs a racial thing that situationally could provide a benefit?

On a class that converts hp to mana?

For all levels 1-60 + torpor at 60?

Nah.

Yes you are right.

Yes I am right.

I am more right.

You cannot and have not proved otherwise.
You have not and will not be able to mathematically prove otherwise

*Caveat: there are 59 levels before torpor!

/thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm going out on a limb here and I will try a different angle. I am doing so in the least "troll" way possible.

Dear DSM,

I understand your point of view. This does not mean I agree with the totality of all your views, but I understand it. At the root source, you are not wrong on this. Your math shows it, but any of us who have played and know this game knows it is a true thing. Your point on this subject is VALID.

Your point:

Once you are 60 torpor is so stupidly OP that you don't need more regen ... or any regen at all. This is a TRUE statement. It is objective. You know it. I know it. We all know it. Torpor is so ludicrously OP that you could have -15hp/tick regen and it wouldn't matter much. You are still always full mana and always full health if you maintain and work to keep it up.

This is not up for debate.

A level 60 shaman with torpor doesn't need regen anymore.
I agree.
You agree.
We all agree!
They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp
They don't have to obsess about keeping regrowth up - it is LESS (but not entirely) relevent.
It's why a barbarian shaman at 60 functions so well. If regen was that important, a barbarian shaman would not be successful - but they are.

There is no disagreement here.

You and I both (and we all) understand the power of Torpor: 200 mana (before specialization) heals 1200-1500hp on a class that converts hp to mana = limitless mana.

Where is the disconnect?

I feel that you personally put too much emphasis on the value of the ability to avoid being stunned on an attack that has a 25% chance to land every 8 seconds from a mob hitting you. Beyond that, if they DO land a BASH on you - it doesn't actually trigger a stun all of the time.

Your point:

The ability to avoid any bash stun is superior to innate regen.

My counter:

Bash *stuns* are actually not that common for 99.9% of game play. The marginal benefit you might get from avoiding said stun is insufficient to the global benefit of always having racial regen.

Discussion:

Truths:
-You don't need FSI to win encounters a shaman
-You don't need innate regen to win encounters as a shaman
-You can be 100% as successful with neither regen nor FSI

My perspective:

-Bashes have a 25% chance to hit every 8 seconds and most of the time the bash does not result in a *stun* for which you would get any benefit from if you had FSI.
-If slowed, this potential occurrence is less frequent

-In order for FSI to be worth any significant tradeoff a few criteria need to be met

A) the mob is hitting you and not somebody else (or rooted ... or on a pet)
B) the mob has to actually bash you (25% every 8 sec if not slowed)
C) the mob has to bash you during the exact moment you were trying to cast a spell
D) said bash has to interrupt your spell and annoy you with 1-2 secs of waiting to "try again"
E) that spell was actually important in a meaningful, game changing, or encounter-altering way
F) the timing of said bash and interrupt had to have an IMPACT on the outcome of the fight.

If all criteria are met - FSI has value at that exact moment in time.
For all other moments in time - FSI did not not change the outcome.

So yes ... I do agree that FSI has usefulness.

But!

I acknowledge that all of the above is the perfect *bad storm*

I just solo'd 29 mobs on my level 56 ranger and had one stun for the whole lot that was from a bash.

So ... a racial regen that is 100% useful anytime you are less than 100% health vs a racial thing that situationally could provide a benefit?

On a class that converts hp to mana?

For all levels 1-60 + torpor at 60?

Nah.

Yes you are right.

Yes I am right.

I am more right.

You cannot and have not proved otherwise.
You have not and will not be able to mathematically prove otherwise

*Caveat: there are 59 levels before torpor!

/thread

I appreciate that you actually wrote a post without trolling this time. It's been a long time. It is a step in the right direction! I sincerely hope the trend continues.

The core thrust of your argument seems to be FSI provides a small bonus. This is true. You agree that Iksar/Troll Regen at 60 with Torpor also provides a small bonus. This is also true.

The simple difference between FSI and Iksar/Troll Regen at level 60 with Torpor is FSI provides a significant boost to survivability when it does trigger. This is because damage spikes are the biggest threat to a Torpor Shaman, not consistent DPS that is mitigated with Torpor. I think you will agree that taking hundreds of damage from an unslowed mob is a problem.

Iksar/Troll Regeneration provides a very small boost to survivability in every fight, but the chance of 80 HP causing you to survive the first minute of a fight is basically zero.

I believe the flaw in your thinking is you posit that Iksar/Troll Regeneration is less situational, therefore it is better. This idea has never made sense to me, and I have seen it a lot in this specific debate. You have no evidence to suggest that Iksar/Troll Regeneration activating more often is providing any specific benefit.

You can math out precisely how much HP you get with Iksar/Troll Regeneration per hour, assuming you are never at 100% HP. No matter how you try to slice it, 4800 HP is 3-4 extra Torpors per hour. This is 1.5-2 minutes of saved recovery time at best. Realistically it is probably half that since Regeneration isn't active at 100% HP. A Torpor Shaman is at 100% HP out of combat, you agree with me here as well.

If you want to disprove my argument, you need to explain why 1 minute of recovery time per hour is superior to increasing your survivability significantly in a fight with FSI, which can save you a lot more than 1 minute in terms of time. Consistency isn't a guarantee of superiority.

As for your insistence on leveling speed, everybody including myself has already agreed that Regeneration allows you to level faster than FSI. Leveling speed is not the metric used in Min/Max, however, and I am specifically discussing Min/Max. If leveling speed was the default definition for Min/Max, Human Monks would be considered to be better than Iksar Monks in most discussions, because a Human Monk doesn't have the XP penalty. Same with Necromancers.

If you ask people and look at the forums, you will see most people agree that Iksar Monks/Necromancers are superior. This is regardless of the fact that Iksars level slower. There is clearly a default definition of Min/Max most people agree upon, because they use it to come to the exact same conclusion. A lot of people probably don't think about it, or have ever tried to put it into words. But the results speak for themselves. The definition of Min/Max is not tied to leveling speed. The default definition is what race has the best racial in the endgame. Iksar clearly wins in the case of Monks/Necromancers, as they still rely on passive regeneration in the endgame.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

General facts:

Fact: any level 60 shaman with torpor can solo any mob that is shaman soloable
Fact: Botb solo artist is/was a barbarian (this furthermore supports the above fact)

Racial facts:

Fact: barbarians level much faster, large race perks (stats/slam), and can use JBB
Fact: iksars get racial regen and ac boost
Fact: trolls get racial regen, large race perks (stats/slam) and can use JBB
Fact: ogres get FSI, large race perks (stats/slam) and can use JBB

Racial perk facts:

Fact: racial regen is present from level 1, scales up with level, and provides benefit 100% of the time you are not 100% hp.
Fact: FSI is present from level 1
Fact: Bash used to stun 100% of the time - no longer
Fact: mobs have a 50% chance to kick (not bash) and miss 50% of the time.
Fact: unslowed mobs have a 25% chance to land a bash every 8 seconds … of which only a portion of said landed bashes will result in an actual stun
Fact: FSI only stops you from being stunned by a bash, not from being interrupted fully
Fact: FSI will result in actually experiencing less interrupts

The above are facts.
They are not subjective.

What follows below is the meat of the discussion. I will add the disclaimer that despite my or anyone else’s actual opinion this falls within the realm of the subjective. Depending on what an individual person values, the actual “best” choice will differ.

It is annoying to be interrupted while casting. I fully agree with this. If I’m fully honest, I cannot think of a single instance where a bash did anything but mildly annoy me. I cannot recall a single instance where being bashed meant I died, someone around me died, or I failed to achieve the objective I had set out to do. Hasn’t happened to me. Not once, not ever. Not in 60 levels of shaman. Not on my mage, cleric, paladin, Ranger, or druid. Closest ever has been on my necro with a quadding charm break … but necros can’t be ogres and it didn’t kill or really set me back much.

A compelling argument (opinion) can be made for FSI, but it has not been nor will it be objectively proven to be “best”. The stars and planets have to align perfectly for it to ever be the deal maker/breaker … and even then … if a single frontal bash stun is what got you killed, I’d argue it’s because your gameplay is poor. You shouldn’t be (ever) in a position where a bash kills ya.

So what do you have with FSI? If the mob isnt slowed you have about a 25% chance to be bashed every 8 seconds but only a portion of those bashes will result in a stun. If a landed bash wasn’t going to stun you - no benefit. Whatever frequency it would have actually resulted in a stun, make that frequency even smaller once you have the mob slowed.

So what do you have with FSI? You have immunity from a minor annoyance that doesn’t actually decrease your chance of success at pretty irregular intervals.

Now, I’m not saying it doesn’t have value. It certainly does … but when you compare that to all the extra hp (and mana) you give up over the course of your character’s life … it does not even begin to cover the gap.

There are 59 levels before 60. There is possible time at 60 where you might not yet even have a copy of torpor. Once you do have torpor, even a barbarian will have no problems … and they don’t get either bonuses. Regen is amazing. Regrowth is still the most mana efficient heal in a shaman’s toolkit (9.5 health per mana vs 6-7.5 from torpor depending on whether you got the extra tick).

What does FSI let you accomplish that you couldn’t without? Nothing. So really we’re just talking annoyance mitigation and a tiny quality of life improvement.

Compared to innate, continuous regen that is good for any class but even more so on a caster that converts hp to mana.

A good read regarding FSI:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s....php?p=3429132

What is the best race?

Top priority: fashion quest (always) … any race
Fastest leveling: barbarian
“I have autism and can’t think abstractly” - ogre
Best quality of life for the life of your character: troll/iksar
Want that regen and to PL yourself with a JBB: troll

Don’t kid yourself bro. FSI doesn’t help you solo anything better. There’s nothing you can or have solo’d that any other race of shaman can’t or hasn’t also solo’d.

Weren’t you caught on video not being able to root rot 4 KC mobs?

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm going out on a limb here and I will try a different angle. I am doing so in the least "troll" way possible.

Dear DSM,

I understand your point of view. This does not mean I agree with the totality of all your views, but I understand it. At the root source, you are not wrong on this. Your math shows it, but any of us who have played and know this game knows it is a true thing. Your point on this subject is VALID.

Your point:

Once you are 60 torpor is so stupidly OP that you don't need more regen ... or any regen at all. This is a TRUE statement. It is objective. You know it. I know it. We all know it. Torpor is so ludicrously OP that you could have -15hp/tick regen and it wouldn't matter much. You are still always full mana and always full health if you maintain and work to keep it up.

This is not up for debate.

A level 60 shaman with torpor doesn't need regen anymore.
I agree.
You agree.
We all agree!
They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp
They don't have to obsess about keeping regrowth up - it is LESS (but not entirely) relevent.
It's why a barbarian shaman at 60 functions so well. If regen was that important, a barbarian shaman would not be successful - but they are.

There is no disagreement here.

You and I both (and we all) understand the power of Torpor: 200 mana (before specialization) heals 1200-1500hp on a class that converts hp to mana = limitless mana.

Where is the disconnect?

I feel that you personally put too much emphasis on the value of the ability to avoid being stunned on an attack that has a 25% chance to land every 8 seconds from a mob hitting you. Beyond that, if they DO land a BASH on you - it doesn't actually trigger a stun all of the time.

Your point:

The ability to avoid any bash stun is superior to innate regen.

My counter:

Bash *stuns* are actually not that common for 99.9% of game play. The marginal benefit you might get from avoiding said stun is insufficient to the global benefit of always having racial regen.

Discussion:

Truths:
-You don't need FSI to win encounters a shaman
-You don't need innate regen to win encounters as a shaman
-You can be 100% as successful with neither regen nor FSI

My perspective:

-Bashes have a 25% chance to hit every 8 seconds and most of the time the bash does not result in a *stun* for which you would get any benefit from if you had FSI.
-If slowed, this potential occurrence is less frequent

-In order for FSI to be worth any significant tradeoff a few criteria need to be met

A) the mob is hitting you and not somebody else (or rooted ... or on a pet)
B) the mob has to actually bash you (25% every 8 sec if not slowed)
C) the mob has to bash you during the exact moment you were trying to cast a spell
D) said bash has to interrupt your spell and annoy you with 1-2 secs of waiting to "try again"
E) that spell was actually important in a meaningful, game changing, or encounter-altering way
F) the timing of said bash and interrupt had to have an IMPACT on the outcome of the fight.

If all criteria are met - FSI has value at that exact moment in time.
For all other moments in time - FSI did not not change the outcome.

So yes ... I do agree that FSI has usefulness.

But!

I acknowledge that all of the above is the perfect *bad storm*

I just solo'd 29 mobs on my level 56 ranger and had one stun for the whole lot that was from a bash.

So ... a racial regen that is 100% useful anytime you are less than 100% health vs a racial thing that situationally could provide a benefit?

On a class that converts hp to mana?

For all levels 1-60 + torpor at 60?

Nah.

Yes you are right.

Yes I am right.

I am more right.

You cannot and have not proved otherwise.
You have not and will not be able to mathematically prove otherwise

*Caveat: there are 59 levels before torpor!

/thread

Quote me in full or not at all.

How desperate does a bloke have to be to put words in someone else’s mouth just to convince themselves they are right?

Read the post in its entirety.

Now read it again.

If that’s still what you took away from that post …

My presumptive diagnosis rings even more true.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Quote me in full or not at all.

How desperate does a bloke have to be to put words in someone else’s mouth just to convince themselves they are right?

Read the post in its entirety.

Now read it again.

If that’s still what you took away from that post …

My presumptive diagnosis rings even more true.

I am not putting words in your mouth. If you agree that Vindi BP is better than Fungi Tunic, you understand why FSI is better than Iksar/Troll Regeneration and agree with it.

The only desperation I see here is you trying to tie yourself into knots in an attempt to be correct. If you admit FSI is the Min/Max option (which you agree with), then you would admit being wrong at the same time.

Your entire argument against FSI is: "FSI doesn't trigger often". The same argument is true for Vindi BP. You can't really prove how often Vindi BP is actually helping you. But people who have played this game for a while understand that defensive stats are helpful, and reduce damage enough to be more helpful than a regeneration bonus when you have Torpor. This is why you don't see raid Tanks using Fungi Tunics, for example.

You have no logical reason that explains why you state Vindi BP is better than Fungi BP, but then state Iksar/Troll Regeneration is better than FSI. We are discussing Min/Max here, not leveling.

[fortior]

you have never engaged in collaborative discussions or attempts to come up with innovations. you are a WW dragon farmer with strong opinions that you defend, to the death, treating every thread as an opportunity to 'win' by exhausting the other party. you never make or take a joke, you never come up with something new, your opinions never change or develop. you are a deeply uninteresting person to interact with, and it really sucks we have to share this forum with you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you have never engaged in collaborative discussions or attempts to come up with innovations. you are a WW dragon farmer with strong opinions that you defend, to the death, treating every thread as an opportunity to 'win' by exhausting the other party. you never make or take a joke, you never come up with something new, your opinions never change or develop. you are a deeply uninteresting person to interact with, and it really sucks we have to share this forum with you.

Again, you have no evidence to back up these claims, yet you assert it is true. The one with the ego is yourself.

I see that you are completely ignoring troll posts like this: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=182

Why do you only target me, while ignoring all the bad behavior in this thread? It is clear you are targeting me specifically, and you aren't being subtle about it.

If you really cared about the health of this forum, you would be reprimanding the obvious trolls here. You are the one ruining these forums by enabling trolls via ignoring their bad behavior.

Please fix yourself and stand up to trolls before you provide silly hot take advice like this.