Request for a different policy on (game-changing) specific item camps

[Shiftin]

Originally Posted by Serin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you want a more realistic perspective think of it this way. You're in line at a concert to try to get tickets and there's a limit of 2 per person. You walk up and see 2 people in front of you and realize there's a supply of about 10 front row tickets.. So, you measure your odds and say "Okay, this is a pretty good situation.. I still have a shot at front row tickets, and the line should be fairly short" An hour later the guy at the front of the line sees a friend and says "HAI MAN How's It Goin?!" the other guy says "Oh, Hey.. Yeah.. I just woke up. Guess I wasn't the first person here.. you mind if i just stand behind you?" and the other guy says "Oh, hell yeah.. That's fine dude.." In another hour the same thing happens, and again, and again, and again..

How would you react, would you happily chew on the crap sandwich? or would you speak out and say something?

That's the situation that the people who started this post are frustrated with. It's not the fact that your guild want's <Insert contested item name here>, cause most people could give a crap. It's that when they walk up there's 4 people at a camp and every time one person gets their item, they leave and 1-2 more people show up and jump right in front of the people who have been sitting there waiting patiently for 3 hours for the 2 people they originally saw to get their fill.

Now for the solution.. Like I said, a little consideration would help a lot. If you see someone sitting there waiting and it's a guild camp.. You might say

"Hey, I'm going to be here for another 3-4 hours and I've already promised the camp to a few guildies after that and I've got no idea how long they'll be on but they're usually online pretty late.. So, if you want to wait I'll warn you.. It'll be at least 8 hours."
Or!

I want to take this in 2 parts. It's a good post but slightly misguided because what happenned to secure one of the most contested camps in kunark wasn't made public before Kunark opened (for obvious reasons).

Leading up to kunark, we did more than a few walkthroughs of how to get to specific zones and camps within those zones on other EMU servers to drill it into people. We tested the fastest routes, built backup plans and sent a team with built in redundancies to both xalgoz and chancellor. So you understand the margins we were working with, we missed chancellor by 2 seconds to a Fusion bard and "easily" got xalgoz (by about 45 seconds). Teams were sent to other camps in similar fashion. All told, we had probably 30 people with specific instructions and redundancies to attempt to capture high priority targets. Without fail, these were pretty much the first 30 people with howling stones keys on the server.

It wasn't just us - some of the highest value camps went to Fusion, TMO and divinity in a similar manner because we all, as guilds (playing together with shared goals and values) decided these things were more important to us than the GM event loot, exploring, etc.

We had a minimum of 3 people in kaesora until we all had our xalgoz fangs and people rotated in to take their (sometimes extremely long) turns sacrificing experience to ensure we could key not just our individual toons, but our friends and guildmates so that we would actually be able to form groups to crawl the dungeon. When we got all our xalgoz fangs... we left.

We also had people watching the chancellor camp and as soon as fusion messed up and lost the camp, we were able to do the same thing at chancellor. This meant 2-3 people at a time sitting for 8-12 hours (or longer before the patch to fix the drop rate) in a room not getting exp, staring at a chair ready to answer AFK checks. Understand that if we don't pass it off to our guildmates, we have useless keys. The analogy of guildies "waking up late and cutting in line" is not particularly apt because to get a spot in line for a key, you had to show up at the appointed time, often times rolling out of another guild assignment or waking up in the middle of the night to take your minimum 8 hour shift (done again to ensure redundancy).

As to the second bolded part, that's exactly what happenned. I had plenty of people wander up and ask to get the next prod. I politely explained the length of time I had been there, how many people we had to key, and could list the next 24 hours worth of people who would be there. I let them know roughly how long it would take us to get keyed and that they should try back after that point.

The other option, as I explained, is not viable in this instance as it negates our ability to efficiently make groups (one of the ways the list for keys was prioritized), but is perfectly understandable in many situations.

I hope this sheds some light on the situation. Our interactions with folks over these camps were significantly more pleasant and reasoned than the people actually showing up late to the party now demanding to be let in.

[Serin]

Guess I'm a liar. <.< but just so you understand my mindset.. It doesn't matter to me how ingenious your plan is, or how orchestrated and complex it is. To be perfectly honest it wouldn't matter to them if you set off a smoke bomb behind the crowd, had a gigantic tv screen playing porn to catch their interest and then they descended from an orbiting satellite and then parachuted on top of a sky scraper and were lowered down by pulleys manned by the strongest "little people" in the world. Just to let them get in line before everyone. (that pulls into an entirely different issue though because you refer to them "standing in front of you" when in reality they're standing in front of all the people behind you while you get yours and tip your cap and leave.. sounds a bit worse in that context eh?)

It all boils down to a concept that's been happening for years and years ... In the words of every grade schooler at some point "You're Cutting! QQ"

What's happening is exactly as I've described it. Now, Please note I am not referring to mobs that give access to other areas.. IE: Xalgoz and the Sarnak dude.. I understand that key mobs are special cases.. Those items are naturally limited to one per person in the guild <.< (I get item, i turn in, i have no desire to get any more) I guess I could have explained that better =/ my apologies.

The items that I believe are in question are vanity/limited use items that are pretty much for fun/cash. That guilds are applying this sense of "Guild privilege" to in order to make their individual member's platinum coffers swell while casual players are told to take a number, and have a crap sandwich. (Or at least i'm referring to them)

Btw, before anyone says "Zomg you said you weren't saying anymore" <.< Sorry, I'm easily baited into response =)

[Nagash]

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Leading up to kunark, we did more than a few walkthroughs of how to get to specific zones and camps within those zones on other EMU servers to drill it into people. We tested the fastest routes, built backup plans and sent a team with built in redundancies to both xalgoz and chancellor. So you understand the margins we were working with, we missed chancellor by 2 seconds to a Fusion bard and "easily" got xalgoz (by about 45 seconds). Teams were sent to other camps in similar fashion. All told, we had probably 30 people with specific instructions and redundancies to attempt to capture high priority targets. Without fail, these were pretty much the first 30 people with howling stones keys on the server.

To bring that back to the concert analogy (quite a good one), you simply planned ahead to avoid traffick and park your car in the parking lot before everybody so you could be first in the queue. Doesn't mean your friends who are arriving later can jump the queue.

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is a line at a concert to try to get tickets. There is no limit. The more of your group of friends gets in, the better concerts you can all get into later on down the line.

You are mislead here: the analogy refers to front seats, not just seats, and that is very different (if you re-read it, you will see that it is actually fundamental for the analogy). There is no concert with unlimited front seats.

Man, I'm drooling again...

Nagash/Petitpas

[Shiftin]

Originally Posted by Nagash [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To bring that back to the concert analogy (quite a good one), you simply planned ahead to avoid traffick and park your car in the parking lot before everybody so you could be first in the queue. Doesn't mean your friends who are arriving later can jump the queue.

They didn't arrive later. Some of them went to be the first in line to buy drinks, some went to buy hot dogs, some went to rent chairs and some went to see about getting some backstage passes for us all. We all took turns getting these things for each other so we could all have all have a sweet time at the concert together. I'm pretty sure it was dave matthews.

[Kassel]

7. We do not have a rule for how a camp will be handed off to another player. It is recommended the player interested in obtaining a camp work that out with who is on the camp already.
*Example* Player a is on jboots, player b comes and sits and just waits. If player a wants to hand off to his friend rather than player b, he has that right. If player a wants to hold a list and give to the next player on that list, that is also his right. GMs will not moderate that unless player b can prove he was deceived by player a with how the camp would be handed off

Equality for all! the early bird gets the worm. This aint no affermative action server and nor should it be. This is everquest. Get some friends or get leftbehind.

[mwatt]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As I said before, two completely different games are being played here. The casual gamers don't have the drive or time that the power gamers do, so they cannot compete on the same level. All they can do is try to twist the rules in their favor. The power gamers believe that loot is distributed according to drive/time, so they play towards that end, competing with other like-minded players, meanwhile the casuals are caught in the crossfire.

One style of play is not more right than the other.

All it takes is one or two people to catch a guild with their pants down, leaving a camp unattended. That has nothing to do with might, and everything to do with persistence.

Before I say anything else YendorLootmonkey, I want to say that I appreciate that in your response, you are expressing a point of view and discussing it without unnecessary emotional overtones. We don't agree, but at least we are disagreeing civilly.

To respond to your response, I'd like to first start off by saying that we aren't playing two different games here - it is one game, approached with two different mindsets by two different groups of people. In reality there are multiple mindsets out there of course, but for the purposes of our discussion, I think we can indeed break it into two groups: Those who would put guild needs and desires ahead of the needs and desires of players outside of their guild and those who would say that the needs and desires of each individual should be of equal value.

You contend that each mindset is equally valid. I think that is debatable. I could write an entire essay on this subject alone, but I won't. Let's just let your assertion stand for now.

However, I'm not even talking about that. You may recall in one of my earlier posts that I have no problem with a guid establishing themselves and getting what they need for their players before letting it go. What I have a problem with is egregious excess beyond this, i.e., when multiple items are being obtained for individuals (or for guild coffers) beyond what are needed to equip the guild, and/or when a camp is being held down just so the pricing on the loot from it can be maintained at artifically high levels.

Much of the consternation of the objecting community is due to the belief that some of what has been going on falls into that excessive definition. If so, this is what is not fair and not in keeping with the spirit if the game. The term "need before greed" may sould familiar to some.

As I asserted at the top of my reply, we are all playing the same game. That is why there have been a minimal set of rules devised by the devs/gms that host this game for us. The current rules allow the very behaviors that some of us are objecting to, and are the reason why the OP suggested a rules change. That is what this thread was about in the first place and I at first agreed.

Though I did not agree with exactly the rules changed advocated by the OP (nor anyone else yet for that matter) I advanced my own idea for a rule change. A clearer thinker than I pointed out the error in my scheme. I reconsidered therefore - and to date I can think of no scheme that does impose siginificantly more work upon the devs/gms. Therefore, I see no practical way at this time to make a better rule, but I wouldn't mind a better one turning up. I have fallen back on trying to convince people to do (what I think) is right. How naive of me. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Nagash]

Originally Posted by mwatt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Before I say anything else YendorLootmonkey, I want to say that I appreciate that in your response, you are expressing a point of view and discussing it without unnecessary emotional overtones. We don't agree, but at least we are disagreeing civilly.

Can't agree more with you.

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They didn't arrive later. Some of them went to be the first in line to buy drinks, some went to buy hot dogs, some went to rent chairs and some went to see about getting some backstage passes for us all. We all took turns getting these things for each other so we could all have all have a sweet time at the concert together. I'm pretty sure it was dave matthews.

I disagree with you but even I did agree, they went to some other errands and are therefore not entitled to jump the queue in order to get the remaining front seats. Doing that in the concerts I go to would at least result in a heated argument between the jumpers and the jumped ones (the kind we currently have here [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]), and maybe a fight.

Nagash/Petitpas

[mwatt]

Originally Posted by Kassel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Equality for all! the early bird gets the worm. This aint no affermative action server and nor should it be. This is everquest. Get some friends or get leftbehind.

Sure, the early bird should get the worm. And maybe the next. And maybe the next. And the next. And the... But at some point, the other birds are going to be chirping angrily because they are friggin hungry. Especially when there is only one worm hole.

[Bubbles]

I bet you were one of those kids on the playground who sat behind someone on the swings and counted their swings till 20.

Man that was the worst rule ever.

No one could possibly enjoy their time on a swing with someone behind them as a constant reminder that the clock was ticking.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by mwatt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Before I say anything else YendorLootmonkey, I want to say that I appreciate that in your response, you are expressing a point of view and discussing it without unnecessary emotional overtones. We don't agree, but at least we are disagreeing civilly.

And to be honest, I actually identify myself as more of a casual gamer/mindset (which is why I chose the guild that I did, because there is a place for my kind there, while still allowing us to experience raid content), with the understanding that there are those who play this game with a different mindset. It's far less frustrating to accept that and move on, than to butt heads with everyone over it when I know that I cannot change the way they derive enjoyment from the game.

The only thing I can control is how it impacts MY enjoyment of the game. That is what I am ultimately responsible for.

For that is the way of.... The Shoveler.