The Common Man's NToV Raid Rules Thread

[JboxCSU]

Originally Posted by Rararboker [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

See my previous post for why that doesn't stop anything. In fact it actually is how things are handled currently. Doesn't stop the main guilds from getting all the targets.

A guild can only claim 1 target.

[Rararboker]

Falkun, elament was in camp. Door he was behind doesnt block aggro. And he couldn't see through the closed door to know the train was right outside. Had you been there you'd know that.

[Rararboker]

Falkun explained it well. That is why FiF wouldn't work. While it is an appealing idea it just wouldn't work out that well. Would require so much staff intervention.

[maestrom]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How does FIF work for zones with multiple dragons? 5/6 in VP can be taken with <25, does a guild FIF all of them with 25? Or does GuildA FIF one with 25, GuildB FIF's another with 25, or GuildA FIF's two with 50? What if GuildA FIF's VP with 25 and Kael with another 30?

We play on a super stable server (thanks Rogean) with internet connections and computers that will never falter. AFKing and staying connected to the server indefinitely is a very real possibility. Do you implement "AFK checks" to FIF? How do you police that?

FIF is not feasible on this server, nor is it wanted by CSR. Training has a MASSIVE amount of precedence on this server in Hate, Fear, VP, etc. Sirken has ruled multiple times that parking on the ramp/just outside Maestro in Hate is stupid, you WILL get trained, and you cannot cry foul when (not if) it happens. Why did Forgard go "Tiananmen raid force" (thanks Juev) and is now crying foul?

Also, everyone claims this was "BDA's train", yet FTE was a Taken player. How are the additional FTEs by Chest and Relbaic any different than Elemant's? They were looking for Iki, they found him, he found them. Elemant is just an idiot mage that couldn't COH himself in time to clear aggro vs. Chest and Relbaic who could FD. Pullers on this server are provided ZERO rights WHEN (again, not if) they are trained. They are out in the thick of the zone pulling, they know and accept the risks. Elemant was not in camp, therefore he is a puller. Forgard needs to train their pullers better.

Hey! Thank you for asking these types of questions. This is exactly the type of input I'm looking for.

TBH, I never raided VP. Its pretty much the only pre-GoD zone I never did. VP doesn't really look like a "gatekeeper" type zone the way the Aary is a gatekeeper for NToV. I imagine, unless there is a zone geometry reason not to (like claiming dragon B requires that dragon A be dead), a guild could just come in, and pick whichever dragon it wants to kill and claim it.

In general, my response to questions like "What if a guild does XYZ to get around the rule?" will be "Don't let them do that". In this case, I would argue that a guild is only allowed to claim one raid target game-wide. Guild_A would not be allowed to keep its main force in Necropolis and then send skeleton crews around to Kunark zones to sock those as well. You get one.

I would also not advocate any weird arbitrary restrictions on guilds like they have to be at or near the spawn point of the target in order to claim. Being in the zone is enough. No need to move from hate IZ to claim Inny. Since FTE wouldn't be the rule, there'd be no reason to sit on the ramp.

Originally Posted by Rararboker [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here is the problem with maestroms suggestion as a solution. Each guild has mains and alts. Mains get camped at one mob in window and alts get camped at other targets. Then you just need 1 tracker at each mob in window to alert people so they know which mob to log in at. Now 1 guild can sock multiple mobs. Your solution would only work if people only had 1 raid rdy character. And while people like me only have 1 raid character, some people have 6 or more.

If Guild A wants to abandon its Tormax claim to try to claim trakanon then they are free to do so.

[falkun]

Originally Posted by Rararboker [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Falkun, elament was in camp. Door he was behind doesnt block aggro. And he couldn't see through the closed door to know the train was right outside. Had you been there you'd know that.

WRONG. Look at Hoku's Fraps:
1) Elament is the ONLY player visible in FRAPS. If he was in camp, you'd see the whole damned raid force. Is camp "in the cubby next to the stairs" or is it "on the stairs". Think of this like Chardok. When you COH in...you keep your ass in the cubby next to the stairs. Leaving the cubby is leaving camp. Its the same as safe spot in HOT. If you are not IN THE CORNER, you are out of camp and have just trained the camp (ask Taken, they've learned).
2) If the door doesn't block aggro, then why do an Elder Wyvern and and an Ancient Shard Wyvern walk by without aggroing? Why does Ikatiar walk UP the hall, TURN RIGHT and start heading TOWARDS his room BEFORE he aggros? Elemant does not aggro Ikatiar UNTIL the door is opened at 11 seconds into the FRAPS.

[Daldaen]

Variance dropped down to 2 hours (+/-1) + a server reset. Add in Sim repops 2-3 times a month

With the above you will have so many mobs overlapping spawns that no guilds could sit on them all and they wouldn't be herpderping over each other. They would be spreading out to gets these mobs.

Finding a guild already set up at KT and you hear Statue spawned 5 min ago you would likely relocate there instead of herpderping over that guild to try to get a KT. Likewise seeing Aaryonar spawn and noticing Forsaken/Asgard are set up at the stairs seeing a Dozekar pop 10min later would likely shift a guild's focus to that rather than trying to pile on top of Forsaken's camp and trying to FTE over them.

With 16 hour variance and no hard reset for over a month (the Velious sim repop helped), mobs have spread out across 4-5 days and almost never are they overlapping even with there being so many targets in Velious.

[falkun]

Originally Posted by maestrom [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In this case, I would argue that a guild is only allowed to claim one raid target game-wide. You get one.

And that will result in circumstances akin to the Class-R rotation. At the beginning of the rotation there were a few guilds (Divinity, BDA, Taken, 1-2 others). By the end, there were 8? 11? Asgard, Azure Guard, Omni, etc. all were able to survive/thrive in an environment where their mobs were guaranteed. Forsaken took the avenue of trying to circumventing the class system by reforming. So you have GuildA that splits 25 members into GuildA2 to FIF a second target, they're a different guild now! How do you police that?

I'm all for spreading the kills around, especially with as many targets as exist with Velious, but this system does nothing to spread kills to more players, they just will fly different (temporary) banners.

[falkun]

Completely agree Dald, server repops helped Kunark immensely, not sure why they have been all but eliminated. They were also the most fun types of spawns and imho created the least amount of server drama/petitionquest.

[JboxCSU]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And that will result in circumstances akin to the Class-R rotation. At the beginning of the rotation there were a few guilds (Divinity, BDA, Taken, 1-2 others). By the end, there were 8? 11? Asgard, Azure Guard, Omni, etc. all were able to survive/thrive in an environment where their mobs were guaranteed. Forsaken took the avenue of trying to circumventing the class system by reforming. So you have GuildA that splits 25 members into GuildA2 to FIF a second target, they're a different guild now! How do you police that?

I'm all for spreading the kills around, especially with as many targets as exist with Velious, but this system does nothing to spread kills to more players, they just will fly different (temporary) banners.

It ain't perfect, but it's better than what we got.

If a guild split so they can claim 2-3 mobs, then they can do that. Would be tough to maintain a presence at their desired targets with the reduced numbers.

[maestrom]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And that will result in circumstances akin to the Class-R rotation. At the beginning of the rotation there were a few guilds (Divinity, BDA, Taken, 1-2 others). By the end, there were 8? 11? Asgard, Azure Guard, Omni, etc. all were able to survive/thrive in an environment where their mobs were guaranteed. Forsaken took the avenue of trying to circumventing the class system by reforming. So you have GuildA that splits 25 members into GuildA2 to FIF a second target, they're a different guild now! How do you police that?

I'm all for spreading the kills around, especially with as many targets as exist with Velious, but this system does nothing to spread kills to more players, they just will fly different (temporary) banners.

More people getting to experience more content is better. I don't see 11 raid guilds as a bad thing, especially now that we have literally twice as many raid targets as we had 4 months ago.

As for Forsaken breaking up to get around the rules. Predictably, my solution is "Don't let them do that."

In order to claim a target under FIF, you must be in One raid guild. If they want to break into 4 guilds to farm trak, let them. There will never be 36 Forsaken_3's in a zone to claim a bigger target.