Shaman race debate

[AstyTZ]

I recently had to go through this decision process, so I'll share my experience.

My main on Live was a troll shaman. My main on The Combine (progression) was a troll shaman. I've had multiple other troll shamans through my EQ career. When I rolled my shaman on P99 in April 2010, I decided to try something different: an ogre shaman. I leveled him up to 50 back in the pre-Kunark days but eventually ended up quitting the server and stripping him.

I have been playing here again for a year now (with a monk main) and recently decided I wanted to un-retire Asty. These were the two choices I gave myself:

-Gear up and continue playing ogre Asty (pros: level 50, full Rune Etched, FSI; cons: no regen, on the same account as my main, looks dumb)
-Delete ogre Asty and reroll as troll Asty (pros: regen, would be on a different account, looks awesome; cons: level 1, no Rune Etched, no FSI)

I couldn't simply keep Asty and just make a new troll shaman, because the name was non-negotiable for me. If I am going to play a shaman, his name is going to be Asty. The account issue ultimately didn't weigh in much - I thought it would be nice to have the ability to allow a guildie/friend to play either the monk or the shaman while I play the other, but that would probably come up so infrequently that it didn't really make a difference.

I will say that I was very very close to deleting my ogre shaman and rerolling as a troll, but not for the reason you might think. My reason was that trolls look infinitely cooler than ogres in my opinion, but there might be some nostalgia there for me since my earlier mains were trolls. I ultimately decided to keep the ogre, and I am very happy with my decision.

Ogre Asty is currently level 55, so no PE yet. I root-rot sometimes up to 6-7 mobs at a time soloing CoM 2nd/3rd floor at the moment (usually just 4 though). 7 is the absolute limit when we're talking using Enstill and keeping the epic rolling on everything, for what it's worth. I'm not sure I would be comfortable with more than 4 as a troll because I wouldn't be nearly as confident in my ability to not die if a couple roots decided to break at the same time. I virtually never get interrupted as an ogre. It's pretty incredible. Having the confidence level to root-rot an extra mob or two compared to a troll helps mitigate any experience I would "lose" due to my slower regen.

As a kid playing a troll shaman, I always underestimated this ability. I remember on Live, if a root broke and I had no room to maneuver (which is often the case in dungeons), I would usually let the mob get to me and do a round before recasting my root. There was no point in starting the spell only to have it get interrupted because you got bashed when the mob reached you. Playing an ogre now and knowing I can soak up that initial bash and still channel my root/heal/etc is very comforting.

I could solo WW dragons on my troll shaman back in the day, and I plan to do so on my ogre eventually as well if I can ever find one of them alive on P99 (probably not). Both can solo the same content and I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise.

Side Note: Are there people out that that are concerned with min/maxing that have no aspirations of attaining level 60/torpor? If this is the case, I'd say just play whatever you prefer.

I love trolls. Love 'em. But I gotta go with ogre on this one. After being on both sides of the coin, the only reason I'd play a troll shaman over an ogre shaman at this point would be purely for cosmetic reasons (which is a valid reason in my book).

[theaetatus]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

which race gets this bonus? pretty sure i know the answer already (hit: none).

orgre immunity is A) front cone only and B) does not make one immune to push. hits from back and side will still interrupt. multiple mobs hitting you will still interrupt on a failed channel.

ogres do not get to completely ignore bash as implied by many posters here.

Yeah, don't be an idiot and turn away from mobs beating on you while trying to channel a spell. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It's that simple.

Why are people even bringing up interrupts from push like it's something only ogres are affected by?

[Synthlol]

Originally Posted by phro [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Once again you can't get it out of your head that there is more to this game than the very end.

This is true, until you do get to the very end.

Originally Posted by phro [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If any other race can do what you do then what is your argument?

The argument is that they do it more easily.

God, you're thick.

[citizen1080]

Originally Posted by AstyTZ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I recently had to go through this decision process, so I'll share my experience.

My main on Live was a troll shaman. My main on The Combine (progression) was a troll shaman. I've had multiple other troll shamans through my EQ career. When I rolled my shaman on P99 in April 2010, I decided to try something different: an ogre shaman. I leveled him up to 50 back in the pre-Kunark days but eventually ended up quitting the server and stripping him.

I have been playing here again for a year now (with a monk main) and recently decided I wanted to un-retire Asty. These were the two choices I gave myself:

-Gear up and continue playing ogre Asty (pros: level 50, full Rune Etched, FSI; cons: no regen, on the same account as my main, looks dumb)
-Delete ogre Asty and reroll as troll Asty (pros: regen, would be on a different account, looks awesome; cons: level 1, no Rune Etched, no FSI)

I couldn't simply keep Asty and just make a new troll shaman, because the name was non-negotiable for me. If I am going to play a shaman, his name is going to be Asty. The account issue ultimately didn't weigh in much - I thought it would be nice to have the ability to allow a guildie/friend to play either the monk or the shaman while I play the other, but that would probably come up so infrequently that it didn't really make a difference.

I will say that I was very very close to deleting my ogre shaman and rerolling as a troll, but not for the reason you might think. My reason was that trolls look infinitely cooler than ogres in my opinion, but there might be some nostalgia there for me since my earlier mains were trolls. I ultimately decided to keep the ogre, and I am very happy with my decision.

Ogre Asty is currently level 55, so no PE yet. I root-rot sometimes up to 6-7 mobs at a time soloing CoM 2nd/3rd floor at the moment (usually just 4 though). 7 is the absolute limit when we're talking using Enstill and keeping the epic rolling on everything, for what it's worth. I'm not sure I would be comfortable with more than 4 as a troll because I wouldn't be nearly as confident in my ability to not die if a couple roots decided to break at the same time. I virtually never get interrupted as an ogre. It's pretty incredible. Having the confidence level to root-rot an extra mob or two compared to a troll helps mitigate any experience I would "lose" due to my slower regen.

As a kid playing a troll shaman, I always underestimated this ability. I remember on Live, if a root broke and I had no room to maneuver (which is often the case in dungeons), I would usually let the mob get to me and do a round before recasting my root. There was no point in starting the spell only to have it get interrupted because you got bashed when the mob reached you. Playing an ogre now and knowing I can soak up that initial bash and still channel my root/heal/etc is very comforting.

I could solo WW dragons on my troll shaman back in the day, and I plan to do so on my ogre eventually as well if I can ever find one of them alive on P99 (probably not). Both can solo the same content and I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise.

Side Note: Are there people out that that are concerned with min/maxing that have no aspirations of attaining level 60/torpor? If this is the case, I'd say just play whatever you prefer.

I love trolls. Love 'em. But I gotta go with ogre on this one. After being on both sides of the coin, the only reason I'd play a troll shaman over an ogre shaman at this point would be purely for cosmetic reasons (which is a valid reason in my book).

I solo'd up there as well. I have also root rotted 7-8 dogs in KC multiple times with no issues on my iksar shaman. Solo'd parts of HS with no issues as well. My red shaman is ogre..my blue is iksar.

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by theaetatus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why are people even bringing up interrupts from push like it's something only ogres are affected by?

Because interrupts from push are actually far more common than interrupts by bash. The ogre advocates keep pretending like FSI is some kind of amazing ability that means you can cast spells without worrying about interrupts. The truth is that if you play ogre, you still have to plan for interrupts and the best way to solo tough mobs is to ensure they are slowed before you start tanking them. And once slowed, bash interrupts come every few minutes. At that point, the paltry benefit of troll/iksar regen is more valuable.

[AstyTZ]

Originally Posted by citizen1080 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I solo'd up there as well. I have also root rotted 7-8 dogs in KC multiple times with no issues on my iksar shaman. Solo'd parts of HS with no issues as well. My red shaman is ogre..my blue is iksar.

I am talking pre-Paralyzing Earth - not sure if you are also. In my experience, enstills simply don't last long enough to do more than 7 simultaneously while maintaining the epic dot on each, even at max duration. Most of the discussion points were talking about ogres only being superior at 60/torpor, but I've found there are some tangible pre-60 benefits as well.

Edit: I guess technically you can do 8 (I ran the numbers), but it's tough to work the resist debuff in there because the timing is incredibly tight, and with the root changes, you've very unlikely to get max duration enstills without it.

       Root Hits   Epic Hits   Root Break  Epic Break
M1     00:00.0     00:09.0     01:36.0     01:33.0
M2     00:11.5     00:20.5     01:47.5     01:44.5
M3     00:23.0     00:32.0     01:59.0     01:56.0
M4     00:34.5     00:43.5     02:10.5     02:07.5
M5     00:46.0     00:55.0     02:22.0     02:19.0
M6     00:57.5     01:06.5     02:33.5     02:30.5
M7     01:09.0     01:18.0     02:45.0     02:42.0
M8     01:20.5     01:29.5     02:56.5     02:53.5

[Stonecrush]

I've slowly read through this entire thing due to the entertainment value.

When I played Live, I ran an Ogre Warrior, Ogre Shm and an Iksar Necro. I rarely ran into fights I couldn't handle.

On live with AA's and the worn Regen gear it made the ogre shm very nice. Of course racial regen became a rather moot point on Live.

On Project 1999 I am running a Troll shm of the Innorruk flavor (sad there isn't cultural for this yet.). I like the challenge and not relying on frontal stun immunity.

Regen seems very very useful here, compared to Live.

[phro]

Originally Posted by theaetatus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As has been stated many many times, any race can do the harder content. The argument has never been 'which shaman race can solo stuff the others cannot?', it's just a case of min/maxing for specific situations. Min/maxing for easy situations like buffing a raid seems rather pointless, it will be easy for any race of shaman.

Choose between one extra cast of Talisman of Kragg every 10 minutes or completely ignoring bash. One of these will help in difficult situations, the other will not.

You're min maxing for an event that will only be possible years from now if ever. This is an emulated server. Are you counting on it to be up once people are bored enough to not be killing those dragons in groups?

Min maxing for an isolated end of career solo event is not min maxing at all unless that is the sole purpose for your character. You may be the best race for soloing dragons, but soloing dragons is not even a fraction of most anyones play time. The fact that not being ogre doesn't preclude you from the same feats makes it an even lazier argument.

[Ele]

Has anyone said gnome yet?

Gnome

[Bristlebaner]

Ogre FSI isn't only for soloing dragons. It helps in every situation where you're taking melee hits.

That's why it's the best racial - because when you're getting face rolled by mobs you will be more likely to get that crucial spell off (root) where as the non-ogre counterpart is more likely to be back at bind point.

Enough of this "It's only for soloing the hardest mobs in the game" stuff.