My proposal for Raiding guilds and GMs of P1999

[eqdruid76]

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So, one thing I remember doing in Classic EQ, which expanded into Kunark, Luclin, PoP, etc, was dividing high end spawns on a rotation, and then taking the lower end ones and making them a mobile first to encounter FFA. So if you were to rate them on a scale, for instance Inny and CT on rotation, and the rest on a first to encounter FFA it gives you the best of both worlds I think. I didn't read through the entire thread, because I'm new and I don't know the drama, but I think asking for GM interference on things is just a little much. People should be mature enough to allow the guild with the first actual encounter on a boss to have their attempt. Isn't that what it comes down to anyway?

EDIT: I guess you would put the entire plane on Rotation? I'm not sure on the logistics of it all.

That's the problem. No one is sure on the logistics. I'm not sure any one of us can tell our asses from a hole in the ground...

[Jify]

I thoroughly support the "Kicked after inactive for 30min" movement!

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Warning: Incoming wall of text with reasoned arguments and no insults or finger pointing. If you are reading this thread to enjoy the drama and munch popcorn, just skip my post.

Even the people who can be logged in nearly 24 horus a day because they work from home, or don't work, or whatever... even those people want to play the game. They want to camp an item or help PL a friend, or play an alt, or maybe just log out and do something else with their time. They don't want to park themselves and alt tab out to surf the web, or play another game, or watch TV/movies, or do housework. They do it now for one simple reason: Under the current rules, it produces results.

Most people will do whatever works that is within the letter of the rules and within their personal ability (read: available time as well as skill set).

So, if we have collectively decided that camping is a "Bad Thing" tm. Then any solution has to do more than wave an index finger and say "camping is bad, don't do it". We need to change the incentives so that camping is more painful, or just doesn't produce better results than other strategies.

AFK camping only works because the current rules grant a guaranteed first shot. So, my first proposal is to totally chuck those rules and go to a FFA with one basic rule.

First to aggro + 15 minute limit to mass engage.

Whoever can get the first aggro on the mob has 15 min to maintain aggro and have his or her guild engage. As long as the battle has begun in earnest (I'll define this as being tanked instead of kited) within 15 min of the first aggro, and there was an unbroken chain of aggro by members of that first guild through the whole 15 minutes, other guilds must back off until the first guild gets the kill or wipes. If the first guild wipes completely and the mob loses aggro, then he becomes FFA again.

If someone can successfully kite a boss for 7 or 8 minutes while his guild mobilizes, then that's cool with me, because it is definitely a skill related to gameplay in EQ. Anyway, the kiting provision is more of a catch-all that is thinking forward to some of the outdoor encounters coming in Kunark and Velious. We don't want one guy from guild X kiting Talendor around for a half an hour waiting for his guild to log in and port over. There has to be a limit. However, I think 15 min is reasonable.

The traditional complaints about FFA are Training, KSing, and excessive need for GM involvement. Obviously, training and KSing are already against server rules. They should be the only reason to involve a GM, and as per the devs, this should be a rare event. They want us to solve things by ourselves. So, how do we make sure that both real KSing and false reports to the GMs of KSing when it didn't happen are rare events. Again, the answer is in the incentives. The penalties for training/ks'ing AND for falsely reporting those charges when they aren't true should both be severe, perhaps a one month IP and account ban, or de-level to 20 or something similarly harsh.

I really believe those few measures (perhaps with a slight adjustment to the time limits) would be enough to ensure equal opportunity with limited camping. The camping becomes much less attractive when the first crack is not guaranteed just for showing up first and when they campers' eyeballs have to be on the screen. I would also strongly favor reducing the variance to +0 to 12 hours. This would still help the spawns rotate around the clock. However, with a more narrow window, there will be less of a pressure to maintain a constant presence in a zone for days... maybe just a few hours. Again, I cannot stress enough how different THIS form of camping would be.... first to aggro and fully engage within 15 min is a very different standard. The people doing the camping actually have to be capable of completing the kill or at least holding on while the rest of their guildmates mobilize, and they will actually have to be at the keyboard with eyeballs on screen, or else someone else who is waiting on the spawn might get first aggro.

However, as much as I want that to happen, I am afraid it might not. The devs might not want to get that harsh with the penalties in the first week or two of this system being in place. That deterrent is vital to this plan. After 3 or 4 people get deleveled or IP banned for a month, people will stop KSing and will be too afraid to level unfounded accusations at others. After that, I believe there would be very few calls to GMs. This satisfies their requirements. As for the players, we will all get a shot. If we can get a force to the mob when it's up or about to spawn and get the first aggro, we can all get a chance to kill it. Then the game is all about keeping solid intel on when targets were killed, when they are due, scouting, picking your battles, mobilizing to your chosen target, and having a good pull team that can get first aggro (or back off when they lose so they don't get banned).

I have a second proposal that is just a tweak of the rules we have, but I don't care for it anywhere near as much. If my first proposal goes up in flames or is ignored, I may post the second one.

[Pyrocat]

Originally Posted by Dumesh Uhl'Belk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First to aggro + 15 minute limit to mass engage.

Whoever can get the first aggro on the mob has 15 min to maintain aggro and have his or her guild engage. As long as the battle has begun in earnest (I'll define this as being tanked instead of kited) within 15 min of the first aggro, and their was an unbroken chain of aggro by members of that first guild through the whole 15 minutes, other guilds must back off until the first guild gets the kill or wipes. If the first guild wipes completely and the mob loses aggro, then he becomes FFA again.

If someone can successfully kite a boss for 7 or 8 minutes while his guild mobilizes, then that's cool with me, because it is definitely a skill related to gameplay in EQ. Anyway, the kiting provision is more of a catch-all that is thinking forward to some of the outdoor encounters coming in Kunark and Velious. We don't want one guy from guild X kiting Talendor around for a half an hour waiting for his guild to log in and port over. There has to be a limit. However, I think 15 min is reasonable.

Holy fuck, I think you might have something there.

[Wrei]

Originally Posted by Dumesh Uhl'Belk View Post

First to aggro + 15 minute limit to mass engage.

Whoever can get the first aggro on the mob has 15 min to maintain aggro and have his or her guild engage. As long as the battle has begun in earnest (I'll define this as being tanked instead of kited) within 15 min of the first aggro, and their was an unbroken chain of aggro by members of that first guild through the whole 15 minutes, other guilds must back off until the first guild gets the kill or wipes. If the first guild wipes completely and the mob loses aggro, then he becomes FFA again.

If someone can successfully kite a boss for 7 or 8 minutes while his guild mobilizes, then that's cool with me, because it is definitely a skill related to gameplay in EQ. Anyway, the kiting provision is more of a catch-all that is thinking forward to some of the outdoor encounters coming in Kunark and Velious. We don't want one guy from guild X kiting Talendor around for a half an hour waiting for his guild to log in and port over. There has to be a limit. However, I think 15 min is reasonable.

Wow, this post alone may warrant a new thread just to clear the shit out of this thread. In fact Dumesh I suggest you do that right now before your idea gets flooded by trollish post from both sides. This solution is so sexy on so many different levels, it makes my head hurt at 4am.

People may debate about the minutes to engage, especially for encounters like CT etc... but nothing that would be unworkable. Why not merge it with some of the other suggestions in this thread.

1. 1 Hour afk = booted from server (this should fix the non raiders problem of getting booted randomly for being afk). Honestly if your going to be afk for more than an hour just log back on.

2. First to engage rule 15min, exactly like Dumesh outlined with a small adjustment here and there for specific bosses that requires planar clears.

3. Increase Time variance even more to + or - 7 ~ 10 days. Add in a flat 8 hours before variance starts on time of the death of the boss (Emil's idea). To further discourage camping even with these rules.

4. Offer draconian consequences for lying / fabricating incidents to GM. If proof was ever found that X person was guilty of making shit up, go beyond the 1 month ban. PERMA BAN of IP and account, repeat offenses from full members of X guild = dissolution of sketchy guild.

================================Warning potential trolling section=

Now I can't resist to not point out the irony of this thread. Let's recap a bit here....

1. Server pops: Dedicated players grind to 50, first generation IB is born. Pew pew begins, bosses die. Second generation players look up and want to kill bosses.

2. Transcendence emerges! Hey we want phat loots too zomg. Not enough skilled player base, Trans adapts with a looser recruitment policy.

3. Smack talk begins IB goes head to head vs Trans. Trans loses...

4. Trans leadership: Hey we gotta get rotation going otherwise we'll never get a phat loot to drop. GM brought in and made to understand that it's the fairest way to deal with the situation. None of this is made aware to IB.

5. IB gets blind sided in Sol B on Nagafen. GM sets precedent of 14 day ban if we don't GTFO out of Sol B, enforced GM rotation up in place between 2 guilds.

6. Trans is happy. They don't need to work for mobs, mobs being breast fed to them.

7. IB stews but sucks it up. Bitching is ok, getting banned is not.

8. Drama happens! Divinity Emerges! WTF who told those guys they can raid too? Concept hard to swallow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] ..

9. Divinity wants equal rights, right to marry, to vote... want the furniture as well. Given the choice of getting no mob to getting 1 mob every 2 weeks, Trans decides that it's now a "we're looking out for the whole server guild".

10. PR War begins... IB=immature,unemployed,hackers,GMfavored etc.. Trans=Unskilled,unemployed,whiners,liars,GMfavored etc... Div=we are not IB or Trans so we must be the good guys.

11. Come on guys, play nice! We all can get 1 boss every 2 weeks... (no thoughts as to how this works for key mobs). Divinity getting restless of not getting the ball passed to them.

12. Gothic Circle emerges! The guild that broke the rotation's back... Nizzarr working hard to find solution to remove rotations.

13. GM Decree the new age of time variance has arrived! Everyone rejoice!! Trash talking resume, Trans convinced they are better than IB, much trolling on forums between both guilds.

14. IB once again emerges on top, how dare they those basterds!

15. Trans officially stops the "we're better than you" trash talk to "dude this shit is 10 years old" to "what about the little guy?? Don't be greedy! Go back to rotation!

16. Douchebags from both IB and Trans being kicked out during the era known as the Troll wars...

17. Trans waves white flag goes to casual status.. All is well in IB's kingdom.

18. Fish Bait emerges! Scanner on douchebags exceeds 9000! If you thought the dbags from IB and Trans were bad, you haven't seen Fish Bait yet! FB determined to be the bad ass kid that won't agree to anything.

19. Funny period in guild relations, we found a guild that we hate even more than each other. Guild relations at an all time high due to FB being such genuine A-holes.

20. My break time! RL finally catches up even to the "unemployed,living at mom's basement,slob". Gone for a few months, no one cares /cry

21. FB implodes! Dark Ascension emerges! FB name is so bad that they decided to re-invent themselves. Smart PR!

22. DA R&D people hard at work to figure out how to beat genuine mobilization... tired of losing mobs to those a-holes from IB. Suddenly someone from DA (Salty?) has an epiphany. Let's just camp at the spot! Must recruit zerg force in order to maintain multiple camping targets.

23. IB boggled by the camping strategy. Realizes that going half retard (responding to text on a boss pop) is not the ultimate raiding strategy, apparently going full retard (of afk camping) beats mobilization.

24. IB leadership decides that going full retard as well is better than not getting any more bosses. Some old members go into semi retirement, disgusted with the current raiding game.

25. IB Full retard vs DA Full retard = IB still wins for the most part with a lot less people we might add.

26. Nizzarr back from retirement! Expected sky to be up! Bummed out it's not out yet. Expects flower petals and a huge party to honour his return. Nothing happens except a dumb loot incident (I'm with you on that issue Nizzarr). Nizzarr leaves unhappy! DA probably on their knees to recruit him, Nizzarr joins DA! Goes from applicant to officer! Much rejoicing in DA land as they actually recruited someone who has good game knowledge!

27. Nizzarr reflects on current situation of being outcamped by IB. Getting sick and tired of losing at whatever game we're playing by those basterds.

28. PR Spin machine going up! Proposal post comes up, to find a solution for the betterment of the whole server (We got everyone's interest at heart card) *wink wink*

29. Much trolling ensues on "constructive" thread to figure out the best way to shift momentum back to DA.

=============End of troll section=============================

Sorry, I really shouldn't have posted the trolling section but just couldn't resist at all the fake PR spin going on here. Like I said, Dumesh I hope you make another thread for your proposal... The original 4 points is my contribution to your post.

PS: It's 5am! Ignore grammar/spelling for all you internet grammar warriors!~

[Biotodd]

Nizzar:

1. If you couldn't handle rotation and I admit I hated it too back when the server Pop was 1/3 what it is now how the hell are you gonna be happy with a rotation now? Seriously back then it was IB and Trans, then Divinity came and wanted to play as well ...then ugg a 4th and rotation falls apart.
Now with the pop at 750-850+ will easily be 10+ guilds looking for a spot on that rotation how are you gonna handle splitting a possible 6 real spawns for rotation(8 spawns I know but I don't count Maestro sorry monks) per week?
Basically I'm saying whatever the system is even if YOU designed it you will complain and whine sooner or later....

2. You guys created the scenario we are in now with the camping and as a tracker I THANK YOU for letting the rest the of the players really appreciate what it is that trackers do/did for their respective guilds..... Finally people without a track button get to see how bad it sucks having to wait endless hours of boredom to get a mob...welcome to the world of druids and Zilo people!!!

GMS:
If guildwar was in game I bet we could solve this very quickly at every spawn point on our own.... but if you want to be classic then the gm's would have to quit showing up everytime a guild cries that their vagina hurts and actually punish the people who cause issues...I dunno maybe try perma banning people who train other guilds, get out of line in ooc/shout with gm's about the decisions they make...seriously have seen people say some serious shitty things to certain gm's who just command 0 respect on this server(you know who you are names aren't needed) Really just force the players to work it out on their own and quit interfering make the players quit being whinny little kids and act like adults..... classic eq was simple either follow the servers agreed upon rules on the honor system or it was FFA.... Never before have I seen gm's randomly show up at raid mobs to mediate so many issues that simply didn't need a gm there to handle.... you have become a crutch for the server to some extent with your constant involvement with raiding....
There is zero incentive for the guilds to work this out simply because if a guild cries foul a gm shows up and makes a decision, then both guilds can easily claim they were right ...the losing guild still claims to be right but gm's favored the other guild for whatever reason and the guild awarded the mob obviously claims they are right....Maybe try this if Guild A claims they were trained by guild B check the logs if they werent actually trained punish them for wasting your time, if they were trained punish Guild B for doing it...create an incentive to make players work together or they never will

I HAVE NO SOLUTION FOR THE CAMPING ISSUE, on my server it was common place to have more than 1 guild at a raid target waiting for it to spawn.... who ever did the most damage won...PERIOD

This Carebear eq sucks, time for people to grow up you can't always win, there shouldn't be trophies for second place, PuG raids never got top tier raid mobs who you fooling...PuG raids didn't even really exsist until Kunark, when people needed epic pieces until then it was all locked down by guilds....

Whatever Im done " The Dude Abides"

Gonna go hide from Nizzar and Dork Ascension's CAREBEAR STARE .....

Blaine

[Taluvill]

Felt like fixing this post up a tad. A lot of it is actually funny imo haha. But its like your writing the history of the world for north korean kids. Definitely through kimmy whatshiscrazynut's eyes.

Originally Posted by Wrei [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. Transcendence emerges! Hey we want phat loots too zomg. Not enough skilled player base, Trans adapts with a looser recruitment policy.

Sorry, took offense to this. Its not that there wasn't enough of a skilled playerbase in trans -- although eq isnt really set up for this because its much easier now than it ever was, I'd take the top ten trans guys against anyone any day of the week. Im sure a lot of them would as well. It's NOT that they arent or werent skilled enough to play this game at anyones level. Or "your level" for that matter. Just the fact that teenagers grow up, and most of trans core has families and big time jobs and such.

Can't live in mom's basement forever and escape the deep, dark clutches of the shitfuck economy forever. Sometime people have to work harder to keep themselves afloat and RL can be more important that a dragon to some...

4. Trans leadership: Hey we gotta get rotation going otherwise we'll never get a phat loot to drop. GM brought in and made to understand that it's the fairest way to deal with the situation. None of this is made aware to IB.

5. IB gets blind sided in Sol B on Nagafen. GM sets precedent of 14 day ban if we don't GTFO out of Sol B, enforced GM rotation up in place between 2 guilds.

6. Trans is happy. They don't need to work for mobs, mobs being breast fed to them.

Wenai came up with the rotation all by his merry self. Popped in and did it that night. You guys didn't get blindsided. You knew shit would fall. We camped it, and you guys said ohh fuck no you dont. "Sitting 14 hours actually active at a spawn is too much for us!" and You came in and threw a shitfest and decided if its not your way -- well fuckem. I can get you the quote from Otto saying that training was going to happen if you'd really like it.

10. PR War begins... IB=immature,unemployed,hackers,GMfavored etc.. Trans=Unskilled,unemployed,whiners,liars,GMfavored etc... Div=we are not IB or Trans so we must be the good guys.

Haha funny. Cause thats how it actually was. hah

12. Gothic Circle emerges! The guild that broke the rotation's back... Nizzarr working hard to find solution to remove rotations.

Div broke the rotation by taking a naggy spawn. Had absolutely nothing to do with GC. Dunno where you got that from.


14. IB once again emerges on top, how dare they those basterds!

15. Trans officially stops the "we're better than you" trash talk to "dude this shit is 10 years old" to "what about the little guy?? Don't be greedy! Go back to rotation!

Just Supreme. Don't lump everyone with what he said...

16. Douchebags from both IB and Trans being kicked out during the era known as the Troll wars...

Hah. Just wanted to give a shout out to Myth and Hasbinbad!

20. My break time! RL finally catches up even to the "unemployed,living at mom's basement,slob". Gone for a few months, no one cares /cry

The whole life thing? trans members do it everyday. sucks you had to take a few months out of yours to do something for the world.

22. DA R&D people hard at work to figure out how to beat genuine mobilization... tired of losing mobs to those a-holes from IB. Suddenly someone from DA (Salty?) has an epiphany. Let's just camp at the spot! Must recruit zerg force in order to maintain multiple camping targets.

It's not genuine mobilization when the spawn was broken. everything was spawning at the exact same time after the variance opened, it was really dumb. IB knew all about it, at least prolly 1/3 of the way through it? so they mobilized for a little bit, but not forever.

It sucks when you don't know the exact time that maestro is going to spawn.

25. IB Full retard vs DA Full retard = IB still wins for the most part with a lot less people we might add.

Oh please. stfu. Its about half and half with the guild that goes after vox getting less targets per week. Give me a break, but good try to put everyone down but yourself.

28. PR Spin machine going up! Proposal post comes up, to find a solution for the betterment of the whole server (We got everyone's interest at heart card) *wink wink*

29. Much trolling ensues on "constructive" thread to figure out the best way to shift momentum back to DA.

Well, this Idea Nizzar attempted to bring up was just a good idea for the good of the server. Why was it shot down???

Because its not in the best interests of IB. The ENTIRE reason it was shot down was that. I dont see Div/Remedy whining about this proposal in here. Just a lot of you shitting up a perfectly good thread. It's like its a nice day, and we started to go golfing, but then this big storm cloud with IB shaped lightning bolts starts raining on everything.

Oh well.

2nd to last thing, whoever said 7-8 raiding guilds can kill bosses... Your sadly, sadly mistaken. Probably like 5, if Trans could necro a LOT of members to kill stuff. Fix the info. Everyone over exaggerates how many raiding guilds there really are.

=============End of troll section=============================

Sorry, I really shouldn't have posted the trolling section but just couldn't resist at all the fake PR spin going on here. Like I said, Dumesh I hope you make another thread for your proposal... The original 4 points is my contribution to your post.

PS: It's 5am! Ignore grammar/spelling for all you internet grammar warriors!~

Yep. This ftw. /endthread

We need to just give Dumesh's idea a constructive place to grow and change and adapt... Like its own thread!!! Yeah! Guys, lets do it!

Just dont shit it up this time around. kthxbai

[Derpus]

poppycock!
/pops monocle

[Aadill]

With some tweaking, Suicide Kings might be what we need for a fair yet competitive ruleset.

The suggestions that have come about in this thread are at least providing multiple paths to help us take a step in the right direction!

[Qaedain]

Dumesh's answer is the most reasonable proposed thus far.