sk starting points

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For strictly theoretical purposes let’s assume that …

-DSM’s level 5 turtle parses are universally true.
-20 str results in 4.3% more dps
-4.3% dps means mobs die when soloing 4.3% faster

Would you, as a:
-new sk with EC gear
-playing a race with very low starting strength
-playing a race universally hated across Norrath
-resulting in rarely having a friendly vendor or banker around you

Would you rather have 4.3% more dps and 20 pounds worth of loot/coin hauling capacity or 20 more intelligence which results in pitifully nothing more mana at 9 scaling up eventually to 200 more mana at 60?

Knowing that:
-without raid gear you might be lucky to have 140- 160 unbuffed str at 60
-stamina will remain low-ish
-as such as a sk you won’t ever cap str without maniacal str (must be cast first) and focus (must be cast second) stack
-and that 200 more maximum mana pool means little to nothing while your ability recover mana (med, clarity, FT, PoTg) will have a huge impact on how many mana-actions you can take over time.

Discuss.

bingo bongo /thread

i cant believe you beautiful autists argued this all afternoon / evening / night

[Troxx]

Not 4 dps (mine) vs 3dps (yours) difference.

It’s 16% (my findings) vs 4.3% (your findings) difference.

If you haste a 100dps pet by 16% you now have a 116 dps pet.
If you haste a 100dps pet by 4.3% you now have a 104.3% dps pet.

I used a crappy hate 1hs. It was boosted by 16% with 20str
You used a NToV 2hs. It was boosted by 4.3% with 20str

In no conceivable way were my results favorable to you. If accurate, it would be the final nail in your arguments coffin.

Thankfully I’m an honest enough guy to truthfully (and up front) point all the problems with the data set I gathered.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not 4 dps (mine) vs 3dps (yours) difference.

It’s 16% (my findings) vs 4.3% (your findings) difference.

If you haste a 100dps pet by 16% you now have a 116 dps pet.
If you haste a 100dps pet by 4.3% you now have a 104.3% dps pet.

I used a crappy hate 1hs. It was boosted by 16% with 20str
You used a NToV 2hs. It was boosted by 4.3% with 20str

In no conceivable way were my results favorable to you. If accurate, it would be the final nail in your coffins argument.

Thankfully I’m an honest enough guy to truthfully (and up front) point all the problems with the data set I gathered.

How do you explain that the raw difference in DPS was similar (3 vs. 4). Are you claiming this is coincidence? You haven't explained why you are assuming the percentage difference is the correct number, and not the raw number.

If more data was provided, and we saw a consistent 3-4 raw DPS difference, what would you say then?

[Troxx]

If I use a weapon that does 25 dps unbuffed and 20 str gives me 16% more damage - now I’m doing 29dps (a 4 dps difference).

If I am using my Greatspear of Dawn which gives me 65dps white damage unbuffed and 20 more strength gives me 16% more damage - that would give me 75.4 dps (a 10.4 dps difference)

The weapon you are using affects baseline dps ….

[Jimjam]

Dsm i think your turtle logs may be showing that your attack is completely squelching turtle’s defence (always rolling high - thereby removing the DI variable we are trying to measure).

It’s too laboratory mob. You need to be using something that is applicable to levelling.Troxx does a bit better on this (assuming his top secret skeleton is a fair representation kf an xp mob) but really we need to level a knight to like 30 but not train double attack or riposte so we can eliminate some variables and look at how the average hit improves rather than dps.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If I use a weapon that does 25 dps unbuffed and 20 str gives me 16% more damage - now I’m doing 29dps (a 4 dps difference).

If I am using my Greatspear of Dawn which gives me 65dps white damage unbuffed and 20 more strength gives me 16% more damage - that would give me 75.4 dps (a 10.4 dps difference)

The weapon you are using affects baseline dps ….

Are you certain it would be a similar proportional difference? Obviously str influences the size of the Di component and weights the d20 in favour of rolling higher, but it doesn’t improve damage bonus. Proportionally how much of dps is db for something like a greatspear (excellent) compared to a hate 1hander (good)?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you certain it would be a similar proportional difference? Obviously str influences the size of the Di component and weights the d20 in favour of rolling higher, but it doesn’t improve damage bonus. Proportionally how much of dps is db for something like a greatspear (excellent) compared to a hate 1hander (good)?

Troxx is talking nonsense. He has no evidence to support his claims.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=211 This post has 1 handed and 2 handed weapon examples with video and log evidence. Both weapons have very similar ratios. I am getting nowhere near a 16% increase in DPS with either weapon via +20 STR.

After 40 minutes of hitting a turtle, I got an average of 1.5 extra DPS with +20 STR. I don't think this shows a very strong argument for putting your starting points into STR.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dsm i think your turtle logs may be showing that your attack is completely squelching turtle’s defence (always rolling high - thereby removing the DI variable we are trying to measure).

It’s too laboratory mob. You need to be using something that is applicable to levelling.Troxx does a bit better on this (assuming his top secret skeleton is a fair representation kf an xp mob) but really we need to level a knight to like 30 but not train double attack or riposte so we can eliminate some variables and look at how the average hit improves rather than dps.

People keep making this claim, but have yet to provide any evidence as to why the turtle is a bad mob to test on. I rolled 11 max hits out of 496 hits on my 2 handed video. I am not sure why that is considered to be "always rolling high".

[Lune]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Both weapons have very similar ratios. I am getting nowhere near a 16% increase in DPS with either weapon via +20 STR.

DSM slowly realizes what Troxx has been trying to tell him for four pages

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you certain it would be a similar proportional difference? Obviously str influences the size of the Di component and weights the d20 in favour of rolling higher, but it doesn’t improve damage bonus. Proportionally how much of dps is db for something like a greatspear (excellent) compared to a hate 1hander (good)?

I’m not certain at all. I have suspected you are correct due to the DB being static and favoring 2handers. I was trying to keep it as simple as possible. DSM has a deficiency in basic abstract thought and reasoning. You can’t simply say that two parses “showed almost the same results” when the high DPS weapon from NTOV went up by 3 total dps (up 4%) and the crappy 1 hand dps from hate (which does closer to 2/5 the baseline damage … possibly less) had a 4 raw dps improvement (up 16%).

Those findings were nowhere near the same thing - but DSM looks at 3 and 4 and says “oh gosh-jee golly 3 and 4 are both numbers, small numbers and are numbers next to each other!! Huzzah your parse says the same thing as mine!!’

I would prefer to parse with my 2 hander but fights would have been over 2-3x as fast unless I picked a mob with much higher hp. Additionally it has that nasty 725 dmg dot over 6 ticks - my skeleton (top sekrit area where you hunt VP key piece) would have died. I tried to do the dark blue giants in FM at the bottom of the fort but it was camped by 2 59s.

I honestly think Kael arena mobs might be perfect for this with a shaman/knight duo. If the knight is not hasted there is a good chance the regen on the mob keeps pace with a solo knight whacking away.

Regardless, as previously posted I’m disinclined to believe that any further tests would be productive. DSM so wildly ran in the wrong direction with my very bad data … what’s the point?

… unless the point is that we want another 475 pages lol

[Troxx]

Sorry guys I don’t have a certification in educating special needs kids.

Am I making sense here to literally anyone other than DSM?

Or am I smoking crack?

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sorry guys I don’t have a certification in educating special needs kids.

Am I making sense here to literally anyone other than DSM?

Or am I smoking crack?

Yes I was explaining the same concept to him with my theorycrafting