Bernie Sanders at his best

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I read this and I just don't know what to say. Are you guys really incapable of seeing the gaping logical flaws here? "Socialism is good! Capitalism is bad! Oh, you tried socialism and it didn't work? Well Socialism is Good, therefore YOU are the problem." Logically, Northern Europeans are happy in spite of their Socialist governments, not because of them. Meanwhile, free market economies work anywhere: Chile in South America, Hong Kong and Singapore in Asia, Switzerland in Europe, etc.

heh look lets just put it this way... the free market system is NOT working in America.. we need to try something else. Bernie is going to offer something else

Sure trump is too, but Im not sure Im ok with blaming a swath of people based off of their nationality as the sometime else I am looking for.

[Big_Japan]

Originally Posted by Lurikeen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Keep in mind that Obama promised "Hope and Change" and all I have ever seen out of that is more "change" going to the IRS and a health care system with increasingly high costs.

I look forward to the specifics you can provide to support your claim about Sanders.

Well, we've Changed to not requiring due process of the law to murder American citizens, people roughly of said citizen's height and hair color, and any children who may be in their 70 foot radius with highly lethal electronically hijackable toy RC planes, and we can still Hope a meteor falls on the Senate the next time the President appears there. I wouldn't say it was the most untruthful campaign slogan ever.

[iruinedyourday]

Interesting that BigJ was able to put two things you both blame obama for in one post, but were effects of the republican controlled senate.

yikes

[Big_Japan]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Interesting that BigJ was able to put two things you both blame obama for in one post, but were effects of the republican controlled senate.

yikes

1. what two things
   
2. we live in a 1-party state. you seem to be confused about this

[Lurikeen]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now for quality of life. With a better economy, more jobs, healthcare, great working conditions, time off for family leave, time off for vacation, higher wages, and policies that will push for mandates for all of this? that is how Bernie Sanders, focusing all of his term on fixing our broken economy, can make for a better quality of life for the people that live here in the USA.

There is A LOT of influence that the president and his office can do to affect, and DOES affect your quality of life. It is the central issue that drives the governments of most developed nations.. not the nation that spends more on military than the next 14 countries combined mind you, but MOST countries.

Leaving the "hope and change" rationale you gave aside for the moment, I want to point out that I am asking for concrete examples of what Sanders will do to come through on your claim. I am not wanting to be snarky, but you have given the same list concerning "quality of life" that every single presidential candidate spouts off in their sleep. Not a SINGLE one presents a specific plan as to how they are going to accomplish such great things. There is a vast difference between saying "I am going to fix health care" and "This is how I am going to fix health care, x... y... z." HUGE difference.

Also I get what you are trying to say about our spending on military, but the USA does have obligations to the world, being a superpower and all. We are the spine of NATO. I mean no offense to those reading this who live in Europe, but the days are long gone that England, Spain, or France can muster a military might that will protect Europe, Britain, and Canada. If you have a better plan as to how we can keep our security obligations in those countries (including Japan and South Korea) without retreating from the world, then by all means spell it out. Until then, I submit that you're just repeating a "party line" equivalent to the other's side "we need a stronger military."

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I read this and I just don't know what to say. Are you guys really incapable of seeing the gaping logical flaws here? "Socialism is good! Capitalism is bad! Oh, you tried socialism and it didn't work? Well Socialism is Good, therefore YOU are the problem." Logically, Northern Europeans are happy in spite of their Socialist governments, not because of them. Meanwhile, free market economies work anywhere: Chile in South America, Hong Kong and Singapore in Asia, Switzerland in Europe, etc.

You're creating logical flaws by oversimplifying what I'm saying. You really see this as being the result of capitalism or socialism being so simplistically good or bad and not as a result of culture?

You would agree representative democracy is a pretty good system, yes? Well democracy only works in societies where the culture permits it. It requires a sufficient amount of respect for the rule of law, education, empathy, and a sense of civic responsibility in order to work properly.

So do we take the fact that healthy democracy refuses to take root in Africa or Middle East as evidence that democracy sucks? No. Likewise, socialism requires certain cultural attributes in order to function properly. I'm saying I wish our culture was different just as much as I'm saying I wish certain aspects of our system would be more socialist. For example, I wish Americans weren't so fucking selfish and individualistic, and honestly it's those values I take issue with more than some stupidly simplified abstraction of "free market" or "capitalism".

[Lune]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Interesting that BigJ was able to put two things you both blame obama for in one post, but were effects of the republican controlled senate.

yikes

I've never once unhid a Big J post and not regretted it, so I've just stopped unhiding them. If I wanted to browse 4chan I'd go to 4chan. Dude has nothing even slightly insightful or interesting to say.

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by Lurikeen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Leaving the "hope and change" rationale you gave aside for the moment, I want to point out that I am asking for concrete examples of what Sanders will do to come through on your claim. I am not wanting to be snarky, but you have given the same list concerning "quality of life" that every single presidential candidate spouts off in their sleep. Not a SINGLE one presents a specific plan as to how they are going to accomplish such great things. There is a vast difference between saying "I am going to fix health care" and "This is how I am going to fix health care, x... y... z." HUGE difference.

Also I get what you are trying to say about our spending on military, but the USA does have obligations to the world, being a superpower and all. We are the spine of NATO. I mean no offense to those reading this who live in Europe, but the days are long gone that England, Spain, or France can muster a military might that will protect Europe, Britain, and Canada. If you have a better plan as to how we can keep our security obligations in those countries (including Japan and South Korea) without retreating from the world, then by all means spell it out. Until then, I submit that you're just repeating a "party line" equivalent to the other's side "we need a stronger military."

I will try, but naturally on some of these issues you may have an alternate stance on them. So Ill try to give you some examples that you can make your own decisions about rather than force feed you why I think they are important.

But to understand where my thoughts are at least coming from, it's that its time we put a long multi-decade investment in progressive ideals the way we did conservative ones in this nation, to see what hope and change can give us if we give it the time that it needs to actually make a change.

Here is some Bernie bullet points:

Comprehensive 12-step agenda for moving America forward. (Jan 2015)
Voted YES on $192B additional anti-recession stimulus spending. (Jul 2009)
Voted YES on modifying bankruptcy rules to avoid mortgage foreclosures. (May 2009)
Voted YES on additional $825 billion for economic recovery package. (Feb 2009)
Voted YES on $60B stimulus package for jobs, infrastructure, & energy. (Sep 2008)
Voted NO on paying down federal debt by rating programs' effectiveness. (Mar 2007)
Voted NO on restricting bankruptcy rules. (Jan 2004)
More enforcement of mortgage fraud and TARP fraud. (May 2009)
Ban abusive credit practices & enhance consumer disclosure. (Feb 2009)

Bernie Sanders on Corperate Reform.

Bernie Sanders on Education Reform

I dont want to tell you why any of this may or may not work, other than I have watched bernie for the last few years and have been very impressed with his passion and intelegnece, the way he fights for his ideals and how his belifes are what drive him, not influence by outside doners.

his constituents, unlike all the other candidates are the people.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Lurikeen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The question is what methods do you want government to use to "subsidize" the lower classes? You say that we need to "first and foremost" liberate our political system, but what does that mean? Bloody revolution? Coupe d'etat? A strong centralized government forcing wealth redistribution?

Liberating our political system: Campaign finance reform to publicly funded election campaigns, likely requiring a constitutional amendment. Also gerrymandering needs to be addressed.

Subsidizing lower classes: Labor laws that prohibit the abuse of part time and low-wage workers, increased infrastructure and decreased defense spending 1:1 ratio by the creation of an additional branch of the military that allows public service oriented toward domestic affairs such as infrastructure, civil service, etc. Young people often join the military for personal development, money, benefits, and economic opportunity. Rather than funneling their activity and funding into pointless work in Iraq and Afghanistan, it should be funneled into serving the United States public.

I'm not going to waste time explaining why the geopolitical of reality of today does not necessitate a conventional cold-war style military machine, that's a discussion for a while nother thread.

[Big_Japan]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've never once unhid a Big J post and not regretted it, so I've just stopped unhiding them. If I wanted to browse 4chan I'd go to 4chan. Dude has nothing even slightly insightful or interesting to say.

Nothing feels better