Hard Coded Vs Soft Coded Teams Discussion

[Kergan]

Originally Posted by Nytch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are basing your statement on PoP era content. Hate was able to lock down end game content in PoP because all they had to do was train 1 encounter (Rallos Zek) over and over again to make it so the Neutral team could not get flagged into the elemental planes. I remember plenty of PvP wars in Velious/Luclin against Hate that ended up with them retreating into PoP zones that we couldn't chase them into and them sending Speedd in to just straight train our raids until we left. On a Velious Timeline PvP will be much more relevant if training is taken away because nothing is keyed except Sleepers Tomb and TOFS I believe? There will be no flagged content to hide behind everything will be up for grabs.

I'm not saying we didn't benefit by being able to train but if it is taken away without flagged zones to hide in PvP will be much more relevant and equal.

Remember those top end guild (Hate for example) spend all their time poopsocking and gearing up, but when it comes time for real PvP they have little to no skill that the other teams had. Having gear is one thing, but not knowing what to in PvP will level the playing field for the "under geared" team who knows how to actually PvP.

That's such a cop out. I played on the server man. Hate was just as good at PVP as ToW. ToW spent just as much time trying to get gear as Hate. I played in <Nine> which had several top ToW PVPers in it including Draganov and Deas before they switched to neutral because of their disdain for Hate. There were skilled players on both sides of the fence and neither side held any significant advantage in the "skill" department.

I just get really sick of the argument (and it's used against Nihilum here) that because they are able to raid PVE content it automatically makes them bad at PVP. This game doesn't require skill to PVP to begin with, and many of the same things that make you strong in the PVE game (leadership, ability to follow directions, coming up with strategies, organization and gear) make you strong in the PVP game as well.

So can we finally put that tired, completely unprovable and frankly whiney argument to bed forever?

[runlvlzero]

It sounds like you all are pretty mad and should give blue a try.

[Danien]

Not allowing training is a huge matter in improving player experience. It is especially relevant in velious given how easy it is to gain faction with the majority of the raidzones.

[Nytch]

Originally Posted by Kergan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's such a cop out. I played on the server man. Hate was just as good at PVP as ToW. ToW spent just as much time trying to get gear as Hate. I played in <Nine> which had several top ToW PVPers in it including Draganov and Deas before they switched to neutral because of their disdain for Hate. There were skilled players on both sides of the fence and neither side held any significant advantage in the "skill" department.

I just get really sick of the argument (and it's used against Nihilum here) that because they are able to raid PVE content it automatically makes them bad at PVP. This game doesn't require skill to PVP to begin with, and many of the same things that make you strong in the PVE game (leadership, ability to follow directions, coming up with strategies, organization and gear) make you strong in the PVP game as well.

So can we finally put that tired, completely unprovable and frankly whiney argument to bed forever?

I don't remember <Nine> so I can't speak to them, however I also can't remember more than a hand full of instances where Hate was able to beat any other guild in PvP with an equal number of players on both sides even with superior gear. I don't argue that Hate had many skilled PvPers, but I also remember a majority of the guild being straight PVE having never seen PVP before because they were leveled/geared up from level 1 thus making them worthless in PvP if a war ever broke out, whereas the Neutral/Good teams grew up getting griefed from level 1 so they had to learn how to PvP to survive.

My post was more geared toward the fact that no one will be able to hide behind flagged zones and gear up like Hate was able to do in PoP thus making both PVE and PvP on more equal grounds.

[Kergan]

Originally Posted by Nytch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't remember <Nine> so I can't speak to them, however I also can't remember more than a hand full of instances where Hate was able to beat any other guild in PvP with an equal number of players on both sides even with superior gear. I don't argue that Hate had many skilled PvPers, but I also remember a majority of the guild being straight PVE having never seen PVP before because they were leveled/geared up from level 1 thus making them worthless in PvP if a war ever broke out, whereas the Neutral/Good teams grew up getting griefed from level 1 so they had to learn how to PvP to survive.

My post was more geared toward the fact that no one will be able to hide behind flagged zones and gear up like Hate was able to do in PoP thus making both PVE and PvP on more equal grounds.

It is amazing how people remember things. I cannot recall a single occasion where we lost to ToW in group PVP (we'll say 10+ on both sides). I guess just a matter of perspective, as I am sure it happened on multiple occasions. Again, PVP in this game is not a skill based system. You could take any random decent player off a blue server and turn them into a good pvper in a day or two.

And there are flagged zones in every expansion, although obviously Rallos was the big clockblock and there is nothing to that level pre-luclin.

[Nytch]

Originally Posted by Kergan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is amazing how people remember things. I cannot recall a single occasion where we lost to ToW in group PVP (we'll say 10+ on both sides). I guess just a matter of perspective, as I am sure it happened on multiple occasions. Again, PVP in this game is not a skill based system. You could take any random decent player off a blue server and turn them into a good pvper in a day or two.

And there are flagged zones in every expansion, although obviously Rallos was the big clockblock and there is nothing to that level pre-luclin.

Okay so agreed to disagree and I'll see you on t99.

[Kergan]

Originally Posted by Nytch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Okay so agreed to disagree and I'll see you on t99.

Hopefully soon!

[Chronoburn]

ToW > Hate until PoP (PvP)... kind of hard to beat 3 instant kill classes and melee's with Time Daggers and Plankton Laced Greatswords.

Most ToW core players were offered Hate accounts during the velious/luclin era ... I'm not sure why but probably to ensure pixels/pvp would come easy.

[Snufz]

Dirty newt.

[Danien]

Originally Posted by Kergan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is amazing how people remember things. I cannot recall a single occasion where we lost to ToW in group PVP (we'll say 10+ on both sides). I guess just a matter of perspective, as I am sure it happened on multiple occasions. Again, PVP in this game is not a skill based system. You could take any random decent player off a blue server and turn them into a good pvper in a day or two.

And there are flagged zones in every expansion, although obviously Rallos was the big clockblock and there is nothing to that level pre-luclin.

There was a pretty brutal fight in Sirens Grotto.