Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then stop posting. This isn't RnF, so you are just being an asshole by trolling people like myself who want to have an honest conversation.

You aren't supposed to troll threads and attack people outside of RnF. You and the other trolls are the reason why this thread is bloated.

I'm sorry, I can't keep my word here when you have the audacity to act indignant and then proclaim you want an "honest conversation".

Just shut your pathetic mouth, you self-righteous hypocrite. You have no right to call anyone "arsehole", you vile petulant cretin.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then stop posting. This isn't RnF, so you are just being an asshole by trolling people like myself who want to have an honest conversation.

You aren't supposed to troll threads and attack people outside of RnF. You and the other trolls are the reason why this thread is bloated.

You want to have an honest conversation?

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

as the data shows

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

[Gloomlord]

I find it strange you're the only one he ignores.

[Karanis]

He started ignoring me as well, he didn't like my hiking friends example I guess [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Troxx]

He started ignoring him the moment he stole page from DSMs playbook of copy pasting.

Let’s go 200!

[Toxigen]

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[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

people like myself who want to have an honest conversation.

You never wanted an honest conversation. An honest conversation is one where all parties involved are willing and able to change their mind. Your thinking is so concrete you could lay down a sidewalk. You're just as much of a troll as anyone else here. Posting a bunch of shitty data and math doesn't change that. I could do the same and I'd still be trolling.


Keep feeding my friend. Everyone is learning many valuable lessons from your posts.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You never wanted an honest conversation. An honest conversation is one where all parties involved are willing and able to change their mind. Your thinking is so concrete you could lay down a sidewalk. You're just as much of a troll as anyone else here. Posting a bunch of shitty data and math doesn't change that. I could do the same and I'd still be trolling.


Keep feeding my friend. Everyone is learning many valuable lessons from your posts.

You have admitted to being a troll, so you have no credibility in this discussion. You don't get to dismiss data just because you say so lol. You haven't disproven the data.

The only lesson people are learning is just how silly trolls like yourself look. The majority of you post history is now just silly trolling because you are too childish to admit you are wrong.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated 700+ posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting an overview of the discussion. This is the data given, so it is all we can use. It would be great if someone else posted some data.

============================Mage DPS===================================

This data is reportedly from a group Troxx had in Sebilis Crypt:

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According to Troxx, his pet is buffed with Burnout IV, and it is a level 60 Water Pet Unfocused. Pet level is guessed at 1 level under max, since a few parses show the max hit of 58.

Average pet DPS: (36 + 50 + 45 + 51 + 30 + 49 + 56 + 60 + 55) / 9 = 48 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick sitting and 12 mana per tick standing. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana. Let's assume the Mage has Conjuration Specialization. This reduces the cost to 248. Since the Mage will most likely lose 1 meditation tick due to the 6 second cast time, the mana cost goes back up to 268, to account for the 20 mana lost from not meditating. This means you can cast Shock of Steel 80 times per hour, assuming that is the only thing you do.

Troxx's average casts per individual fight: (5 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 8) / 9 = 5. To pull this off, that means he is spending 1340 - 290 (9 med ticks + 1 standing tick) = 1050 mana per encounter. After 3 encounters he would be out of mana, so there is no way he can sustain the DPS numbers provided. This is why we use the average of 1 nuke per minute, as it is not realistic to be nuking at a high DPS consistently. 74.22 is also close to the overall encounter of 80 DPS, so there is no reason to doubt the individual sets vs. the whole set.

Average player DPS without clickies: (825 damage x 80 nukes) / 3600 seconds = 18.33 DPS.

Using a https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem , which is a level 49 Sebilis mob and similar to Crypt mobs, an unslowed mob did 74 hits in 144 seconds. (74 x 33) / 144 = 16.95 DPS

Slowing the same mob above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E , the DPS of the damage shield is reduced to 3.9 DPS. 26 hits x 33 Damge over 220 seconds = 3.9 DPS. This makes sense, since the mob was slowed 75%, and 4 is 25% of 16.

Average Damage Shield DPS: 16.95 DPS.

Average Damage Shield DPS with slow: 3.9 DPS.

The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more:

Average Total DPS without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 16.95 = 83.28 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 35.29 + 16.95 = 100.24 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 24.66 + 16.95 = 89.61 DPS

Average Total DPS without clickies on a slowed mob: 48 + 18.33 + 3.9 = 70.23 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling on a slowed mob: 48 + 35.29 + 3.9 = 87.19 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff on a slowed mob: 48 + 24.66 + 3.9 = 76.56 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 11.45 = 77.78 DPS
The Direct damage number is lower because you would realistically only be able to nuke once per minute due to mana, so ((825 * 0.5) / 36) = 11.45 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 16.66 + 16.95 = 81.61 DPS
The DPS is halved on this due to it being difficult to realistically get two 17 second casts off in 36 seconds.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 18.5 + 16.95 = 83.45 DPS

============================Shaman DPS===================================

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg - Pet DPS video, logs are attached in description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Shaman Torpor Mana Recovery Video.

Pet DPS is using a max level pet with Celerity (50% haste), Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Average pet DPS: 7321 damage over 414 seconds = 17.7 DPS

A Shaman with max Torpor and Clarity II is regenerating mana at rougly 16 mana per second. Let's assume this Shaman has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (16 x 3600) + 3000 = 60600.

Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt cost 745 mana total. This means you could cast this combination 81 a maximum of times per hour. You would not be using Conjuraton Specialization typically, so the number doesn't change.

Average player DPS without clickies (Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt): ((1648 + 1278) x 60) / 3600 seconds = 48.76 DPS.

The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more:

Average Total DPS without clickies: 17.7 + 48.76 = 66.46 DPS

Average Total DPS with JBB: 17.7 + 32.88 = 50.58 DPS

Average Total DPS with 1 Epic Click + 1x Pox + 2x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 63 = 80.7 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies (2x Ice Strike): 17.7 + 37.5 = 55.2 DPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E - Shaman Quick DPS video, logs are attached in description.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with JBB: 17.7 + 29.22 = 46.92 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with 1x JBB and 1x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 35.25 = 52.95 DPS
This would be a bit more mana efficient than 2x Ice Strikes, could do more DPS if the mob takes longer to kill, and is the same cast time as 2x Ice Strikes.

============================Difference in DPS===================================

The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more:

Average Total DPS difference without clickies: 83.28 DPS (Mage) - 66.46 DPS (Shaman) = 26.82 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies: 100.24 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 19.54 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies on a slowed mob: 87.19 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 6.49 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference without clickies: 77.78 DPS (Mage) - 55.2 DPS (Shaman) = 22.58 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference with best clickies: 83.45 DPS - 52.95 DPS = 30.5 DPS

The Difference is between 6.49 DPS and 30.5 DPS, depending on the setup of the Mage vs. the Shaman, the killspeed, and if a mob is slowed.

============================Conclusion============ =======================

The reason for this breakdown is because the debate is choosing between Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric or Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric for OP's question. The argument for Mage is DPS + Malo + Charm Break Safety.

A Shaman has both Charm Break Safety (Pet + Torpor) and a better Malo -> Malosini chance, due to Malo being better than Mala. This is why they are much better at high end level 60 camps such as Ixiblat Fer, Fungi King, Cliff Golems, West Waste Dragons, etc. They can tank better and they can slow better. This is also where Shamans can increase their DPS, since a mob with more HP is going to take longer to kill. This means you can use your DoTs to full effect.

When looking at DPS, you can see that you will only lose 7-30 DPS when picking a Shaman over a Mage, depending on the situation. Using Troxx's Data, you can see that two charmed level 47 mobs with a Torch and Haste would do 86x2 = 172 DPS. This means you are looking at a difference between 255 DPS and 225 DPS at best. When killing a mob with 8000 HP, the difference would be 31 seconds vs. 36 seconds. The Mage is only saving 5 seconds per kill, and offers very little else. If your group is killing 20 mobs on a 30 minute timer, you are saving roughly 3 minutes per hour. To get an extra mob cycle, you would need to be at that camp for 10 hours. DPS loses efficiency as you stack more. For example, 2x Enchanters and 2x other group members would easily have a total of 200 DPS. At 200 DPS, it takes 40 seconds to kill a mob with 8000 HP. If you simply had 4x Enchanters to increase your DPS to 400, you would only decrease the kill time to 20 seconds. Even though you doubled your DPS, you only got half of the time decrease.

The other debate that spawned was whether to take a Shaman or not based on them being less useful at low levels. It is true Shamans don't come into their own until level 30 or so, but this is true for Enchanters and clerics too. https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...postcount=1273 This post shows a level 24 warrior out-DPSing a level 27 charmed pet with 37% haste and a Torch. Enchanter charm isn't as powerful as people think at lower levels, plus Enchanters have to deal with more meditating, lower mana pool, more fizzles, more interrupts, resists, etc. The 2x Enchanters in this group aren't going to be as good as melees with 2k worth of gear. The cleric is also going to bring fairly little to the table. This shouldn't deter you from bringing these classes, as they are well worth the wait once you get to level 30 or so. Luckily leveling from 1-30 is going to be super easy with any group of 4, so this shouldn't be a big consideration.

Finally, this debate is looking at all level ranges, from 1-60, including level 60 item farming. It is up to the user to decide whether they want to pick a Mage for slightly faster kill speeds from levels 1-60 and during level 60 farming, or pick a Shaman for their superior utility and safety. This is very useful when farming level 60 camps like Fungi King and Ixiblat Fer. Honestly a group of 4 casters is already going to level extremely quickly, so I do not believe the Mage is worth it. A slightly better leveling experience does not make up for a Mage bringing very little at the end. OP has already chosen his group (Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Mage), so it is a draw in terms of the debate. I personally would go for Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Cleric.

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hi I'm DSM, I post faulty data and bad arguments and feed trolls 600+ times. I pretend it's cause I want imaginary silent readers to learn from me. Secretly I just can't help myself but continuing to post feeding trolls

I KNEW IT. The post history was clear the whole time.