Enchanter OP impact poll

[azxten]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Should channeling through a few hits really be an outlier at your level? I remember channeling through that on live without surprise.




Lol. If that were my experience I would probably be asking for a nerf too.

Yes, it's actually kind of ridiculous people are even arguing this point. ANYONE can go test this in game and you'll absolutely see channeling is too successful even at level 1. There is already a client decompile proving this.

A level 1 on P99 has about a 50-70% success rate at channeling. On live at level 1 you had like a 10% chance. At 50+ on P99 channeling is similar to live. Again it's all about the power curve being wrong not that the final destination wasn't reachable on live. Same with charm and people comparing a naked level 20 Enc charming pre-kunark dungeons and soloing huge parts of it saying that's totally classic because they remember a level 60 Velious Enc in max gear doing similar.

[Disease]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unfortunately, someone was in Unrest basement so I'll have to try again later. I couldn't find 5 mobs together and the monk is green. Don't worry though I did successfully channel charm the two times I casted it while in melee. Just wanted to post this because it's hilarious that I successfully channel through a dark terror's knockback.



Take 5 melee hits and a knockback spell? Yeah, we can channel through that. I'll build ever more ridiculous evidence of this including consecutive ridiculous channeling events all on video to prove I'm not cherry picking. Try it yourself some time.

I will admit it took me 10 years of P99 to finally come to the conclusion that not casting long ass spells in melee is inefficient and newb shit from live EQ that doesn't apply here. I bet a lot of people don't even try so they havn't realized yet just how easy it is.

Wow! One log file, casting one spell. You're really putting in some work with getting this fix put in!

[loramin]

I love how everyone who played on live remembers what Enchanters were actually like ... but the Enchanter players here, who don't want to play a classically difficult class, demand a PhD dissertation of proof ...

... again, just to tell us what everyone who played in classic already knows: Enchanters weren't like this on live!

EDIT: We have this forum called the Starting Zone, and every week or so we get a new person in it saying "OMG I played EverQuest back in the day and now I get to play it again here; this place is amazing!!!"

I challenge anyone who thinks Enchanters are accurate here to ask one of those people (a completely unbiased observer, with no "skin in this game") what they remember about Enchanters ... and whether they were the soloing gods of the game [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[TripSin]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I love how everyone who played on live remembers what Enchanters were actually like ... but all the Enchanter players here who don't want to play a classically difficult class require a PhD dissertation of proof ...

... again, just to tell us what everyone who played in classic already knows: Enchanters weren't like this on live!

Nice strawman. Nobody is saying that enchanter isn't played drastically different from live. Almost nothing in p99 is played like it was played in live because it's literally impossible once you put in players from 2021. The point of contention I have with OP and his like is that they are attributing it to the wrong reasons.

Azxten continues to make outlandish, garbage claims without providing any actual reputable, empirical evidence.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by TripSin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nice strawman. Nobody is saying that enchanter isn't played drastically different from live. Almost nothing in p99 is played like it was played in live because it's literally impossible once you put in players from 2021. The point of contention I have with OP and his like is that they are attributing it to the wrong reasons.

Originally Posted by TripSin (Essentially)

Everyone who played an Enchanter back from 1999-2001 was an idiot who didn't know what they were doing or how to play the class

Sorry, but that's a garbage argument: there were literally 20x as many Enchanters playing then as there are now, and at least a decent percentage knew how to play their class.

There was an entire Enchanter forum dedicated to Enchanter knowledge, and if it was as easy to solo here as it was on live I guarantee that knowledge would have been known, and shared on that forum.

[TripSin]

[QUOTE=loramin;3277114]

Originally Posted by TripSin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nice strawman. Nobody is saying that enchanter isn't played drastically different from live. Almost nothing in p99 is played like it was played in live because it's literally impossible once you put in players from 2021. The point of contention I have with OP and his like is that they are attributing it to the wrong reasons.



"Everyone who played an Enchanter back from 1999-2001 was an idiot who didn't know what they were doing or how to play the class".

Sorry, but that's a garbage argument: there were literally 20x as many Enchanters playing then as there are now, and they 100% knew how to play their class.

There was an entire Enchanter forum dedicated to Enchanter knowledge, and if it was as easy to solo to 60 here as it was on live I guarantee that knowledge would have been known, and shared on that forum.

First of all, you're wrong. If you think everybody was even stacking cha like they are now, you're just being completely ignorant. Second of all, that's not even my argument. But thanks for trying to misrepresent it. I like how you even use the quote function to misrepresent what I said. Absolutely pathetic.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by TripSin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First of all, you're wrong. If you think everybody was even stacking cha like they are now, you're just being completely ignorant. Second of all, that's not even my argument. But thanks for trying to misrepresent it. I like how you even use the quote function to misrepresent what I said. Absolutely pathetic.

Ad hominem means “against the man,” and this type of fallacy is sometimes called name calling or the personal attack fallacy. This type of fallacy occurs when someone attacks the person instead of attacking his or her argument.

When you resort to ad hominem, you basically just admitted you have nothing to say to my actual argument.

And speaking of that argument, if I misrepresented your position then tell me what I got wrong. But you can't have it both ways: either the 20x Enchanters on live were all incompetent (or only a tiny secretive fraction were competent, and they didn't share that super secret info) ... or a decent number on live knew how to play their class, and something is different, mechanically, here.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sorry, but that's a garbage argument: there were literally 20x as many Enchanters playing then as there are now, and at least a decent percentage knew how to play their class.

There was an entire Enchanter forum dedicated to Enchanter knowledge, and if it was as easy to solo here as it was on live I guarantee that knowledge would have been known, and shared on that forum.

I mean by PoP enchanters were rampant on a lot of servers because the meta of charm killing had become much more known.

Charm killing as a strategy simply wasn’t as widespread through Kunark. By Velious you started to see it ramp up more as a result of people starting to realize how OP Enchanters were in terms of their toolkit. Before then people just didn’t fully appreciate it, they thought it was a CC and support class. People also thought pets stole exp from groups for quite awhile so people were asked not to have pets in some groups. People also stacked INT on casters aggressively...people min/maxing CHA just wasn’t a common thing, everyone thought that was just most relevant for bards lol

Another factor for the rampant number of enchanters from day 1 on P99 is everyone knowing what the extremely valuable items and camps are and knowing exactly what class can and can’t hold down those camps solo. Back then, that level of knowledge also wasn’t as widespread so you didn’t have the meta of “if I want to farm the most valuable loot, I need an enchanter because there are camps you simply can’t solo as another class.”

There’s simply so many things that go into why you see so many Enchanters that have nothing to do with things being incorrect mechanically. The only thing I agree with is that channeling is probably too easy on P99 vs. classic but as another commenter said I think you’d basically have to rebuild the client to solve that issue.

There’s been no other actual evidence of any other mechanics being broken. If there is, people would go post it in the bugs forum rather than ranting about it here.

[azxten]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean by PoP enchanters were rampant on a lot of servers because the meta of charm killing had become much more known.

Charm killing as a strategy simply wasn’t as widespread through Kunark. By Velious you started to see it ramp up more as a result of people starting to realize how OP Enchanters were in terms of their toolkit.

There’s been no other actual evidence of any other mechanics being broken. If there is, people would go post it in the bugs forum rather than ranting about it here.

Or maybe it's all the in era posting, people's memories, evidence, etc showing pets ran all over the zone, fell through the world, attacked group members, and so on that stopped charm being viable. Maybe we should look at the FOH guild postings specifically calling out charming in classic and charming for FG raids which had a 80% chance of death on any given attempt. We could look at all the classic in era references clearly stating Enchanter needed CHA for Charm. On and on all the evidence is there that yes, our memories of charm are exactly how it was, viable in certain situations like outdoor zones when SoW was available, absolutely not possible for a solo Enchanter to be charming packs of mobs in dungeons where they had no room if things went bad.

No evidence? Channeling? Why do people who make the same tired arguments about "people didn't know how to play" keep ignoring channeling being too successful and proven so?

This is getting old, just let the thread die, I'll make a new one. Thanks for the advice on clarifying messaging.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by cd288 (essentially) [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People were ignorant on live

Again, that's what your argument boils down to ... and it defies reason. Yes, people on live were ignorant about certain things ... but they were not so ignorant that they didn't try to play their class. Again, 20x the number of people that play here (probably more) were all playing this class: experimenting with it, trying Cha gear, trying to solo, etc.

I tried to find proof of as much on the Enchanter forums, but it looks like Wayback doesn't have an archive past 2003 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] (https://web.archive.org/web/2019*/ht...es.net/forums/) I strongly suspect this is a big part of the problem: no one can "prove" obvious facts (eg. that classic Enchanters absolutely did think Charisma was important).

But look, people thought far less important stats (eg. Agility!) were important for their class. Enchanters knew Charisma and Intelligence were important, and they knew Charisma was related to charming. Maybe they didn't know the exact details, but the game made Charisma green for a reason [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So again, it defies reason to suggest that despite 20x P99's Enchanter population all trying to solo and group (because every class tried to both solo and group back then) the vast, vast majority of them chose to group out of ignorance. No, they chose to group because it made more sense to do so ... in the real classic EQ.