Bag Limit per Guild

[Tanthallas]

Originally Posted by reborn649 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fair enough, but if you joint raid on something like Trakanon, will you not have 4 coth mages there and have an unfair advantage over other guilds? If you want to joint raid something like trak, use 1 mage from each guild to even the odds.

Thats exactly what I said, and that is exactly what we have been doing. We only have 2 people between both guilds logged on at the ledge or being camped at the ledge. Everyone else is waiting to get CoTHed.

[kotton05]

Originally Posted by reborn649 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fair enough, but if you joint raid on something like Trakanon, will you not have 4 coth mages there and have an unfair advantage over other guilds? If you want to joint raid something like trak, use 1 mage from each guild to even the odds.

hmm

[doraf]

Originally Posted by reborn649 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Guilds need to be separate or together imho. With the new raid rules, "alliances" just have an unfair advantage. If it doesnt change, other guilds are going to split to have the same "alliance" advantage causing less mobs for everyone. Eventually someone else will get the bright idea to split each of those guilds as an "alliance"... Now we have 1 guild split 4 ways. Everyone who plays on p99 knows this to be idiotic, but also knows it's not inconceivable by any means. Either 1 guild under the same tag or 2 separate guilds with no alliance...no reason GM's should have to intervene on this. I respect FE/IB and have a lot of friends in both, but you have to clearly see the advantage of a situation like trakanon where u have an "alliance" with 4 coth mages and every other guild who is competing only has 2. This isnt the only example, but probably the most obvious.

When we joint raid, we only bring the allowed number of CoH mage/Trackers as a single guild is allowed. There may be 1 IB mage and 1 FE necro, but there will never be more than two combined on the ledge tracking. Where as you're thinking we could have 4. I doubt that we could and it's prolly best to be cautious than to press the rules. IB goes on their own during server repops. That's their decision and I can't blame them, but we raid VP together which is actually beneficial to TMO. TMO is only worried about splitting dragons with the alliance as opposed to racing or splitting VP with three guilds.

Guilds could split off into smaller guilds and try to get more repop kills, but they would still have to be competitive. IB is a pretty small guild, but they've been around the block a few times and feel confident enough to handle repops on their own.

[Tanthallas]

Originally Posted by Spitty [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why not deduct a point (or whatever fuck you people are using now) from each guild's bag limit if they raid jointly?

This does three things -

1. Encourages single-guild and low-headcount attempts
2. Appropriately counts a raid against each guild if they choose to jointly raid a target
3. Prevents any unfair advantage or loophole where splitting guild forces or combining multiple guilds would result in extra bag points (or, again, whatever the fuck you people are using now)

From a purely outside perspective, it's unfair to prevent guilds from co-operating to take down large targets and it's unfair to give those guilds extra "solo" raid opportunities on the side just because they like to team up now and then.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous that two guilds combining as one wouldn't result in a deduction from both guilds' bag. I mean, what's happening now? Are you deducting a half-point from each guild so that it forces those guilds to jointly raid another target to satisfy their limit? It wouldn't make sense that a guild with 1.5 points remaining would be able to engage two raid targets on their own, right?

It makes sense to either dock both guilds a point, or a half-point and force another joint raid. If Guild A and B team up and "use" guild B's point for a raid, Guild A shouldn't be able to go do whatever the hell they want after getting loot from that raid - there should be a deduction.

This is exactly what is already happening. This is exactly what I have been saying. When FE and IB, or any other guild joint kill a mob on a repop, that mob counts toward both of their bag limits. This is precisely how FE and IB have handled every repop since the bag limit rule was put in place.

[Buriedpast]

What unfair advantage?

TMO needed a 135 man roster to compete with TR and a turnout of up to 80 people commonly before they were competitive.
TMO now doesnt, and fields 35-50 people depending on target and time of day. Great improvement. Historically TM-A were doing the exact same as we are forced to now, and TR welcomed the competition and eventually a lack of VP and killing the same shit week in week out burned so many out you win by attrition. Bravo.

TR back then did 30-35. we now do 12-20 people. 30 on a repop
FE does 15-25 people, 35 on a repop.

Thus, we can only compete if we share the duties of tracking, #'s on spawn, dps and heals, despite our differences, and we let any and all of those differences slide in the face of our more important desire to be competitive and at times beat, at times lose to, our competition. Now, should we because of much smaller rosters of active people than TMO independently instead spend the next 6 months recruiting and getting to TMO numbers, or for the time being enjoy our small, efficient group of folks and slow high quality applicant stream.

What I see TMO guys here asking is that both FE and IB step down from competitive class until they are able to compete individually, and for TMO to have all C class spawns to themselves to feed their many mouths and many alts. Normally, I'd be fine with that. Part of being competitive is there has to be a second place. But we have an opportunity to usher in a new raid culture. Why not let people work together to make it a fun an prosperous environnment through not only the loot, but in the sense of accomplishment and worthy adversary that TMO present. You guys have stepped your game up big time since we left for Mac. Us? We have only 3 remaining clerics of what was once arguably the best 9-10 ever in the one guild in eq's history.

So theres clearly a few options here:

TMO gives IB unconstested VP for 4-6 months, like IB earnt and wasnt given as VP was released so late.
TMO settles down, sees how it plays out and we review it all in a month or two.
TMO demands we raid as one all the time, which neither of IB or FE want to do (or we would of merged), and this would just see a bunch from both guilds quit, as it isnt what we want, and I'd rather not kill mobs than be forced to kill them with TMO/A style numbers.

I think the 2nd option is the best obviously, it does very little to affect anyone else, forces TMO to flex its (large) muscle and advantageous 1.5 years of farming VP uncontested for alts, and it allows us a fair medium to help our many many new members in each guild.

I just cant see why after two repops, and one of them jointly raided, there is a 16 page thread on the topic. If there are legitimate grievences after the dice settle down then sure, open the lines of communication (which should admittedly never close with your new leadership and the excellent reputation we all hope to build as a community now), and talk about it with the leadership of both guilds and work out a compromise.

But jumping the gun after week 1 is a show of cards I thought the server did no longer need to deal with. I thought this forumtrolling and white knighting shit was over and we could all get back to the business of having fun.

So what is it that you really want, to make noise, or to express a legitimate grievance over an extremely small sample size, based on an action that has taken place 50% of the given chances.

Sorry, I cant see the logic. Speak to me in about mid/late feb and see how things are and let's hope some other guilds do the same to share in the spoils, as with our tracking and mobilisation power, that of TMO, and BDA, and Taken, there is not much left without alliances being made for the same reasons they exist today for us.

[Phatso]

TMO mad because their zerg recruiting is no longer beneficial to the new raid scene.

[Lammy]

This thread began as bag limit issues but now it extends even beyond that. The difference between "when it suits you and when it doesn't" is only a concern because of the limit the new raid rules restricting TMO. They tie our hands from competing evenly because fe/ib essentially get to bend the rules at certain times when it is benificial. Al la excessive people camped at trakanon ledge because you're "two guilds" killing as one. I can't even fathom how you cannot acknowledge the unfair advantage in that.

And I believe this to be an issue not because I care that fe/ib raid together, but only because the new, unclassic raid rules restrict TMO from even having a fair chance to compete with the advantage that they provide for your raiding alliance.

[Tanthallas]

Originally Posted by Lammy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This thread began as bag limit issues but now it extends even beyond that. The difference between "when it suits you and when it doesn't" is only a concern because of the limit the new raid rules restricting TMO. They tie our hands from competing evenly because fe/ib essentially get to bend the rules at certain times when it is benificial. Al la excessive people camped at trakanon ledge because you're "two guilds" killing as one. I can't even fathom how you cannot acknowledge the unfair advantage in that.

And I believe this to be an issue not because I care that fe/ib raid together, but only because the new, unclassic raid rules restrict TMO from even having a fair chance to compete with the advantage that they provide for your raiding alliance.

What is this excessive people camped at the ledge bullshit; why are you making completely false accusations? FE and IB have never done this, and have no intention to do this. IF we ever do this, I expect some form of punishment. Today at Trak you lost a legitimate race - we had one mage at the ledge, and one at the zone.

These new raid rules dont restrict TMO in any way that they were not restricted before insofar as FE and IB joint raiding is concerned. Noone has yet to show me how the implementation of a bag limit on repops, repops that DID NOT exist before, somehow implies that FE and IB joint raiding is problematic in a way that it wasnt before. As long as the bag limit rules are adhered to, there is nothing to even be discussed here. If FE and IB break the raid rules, then there will be. Everyone has more mobs than they did before, with vastly reduced variance, and they still find something completely off the wall to bitch about.

[Buriedpast]

And to reiterate about the Coth mages and tracking.

We deliberately and with threat of severe punishment/deguilding act within the rules. I logged on and gated several toons off the ledge before and during the trak window that were left there by ignorance or forgetfulness. We ensured to have any and all coths at zone line or in TT. The race for trak was won on organisation, coth order strategy, and a balanced force engage with specific instructions on who to coth. Not one second of todays trakanon was left to chance between us. The chance of a raid suspension, the chance of losing the mob, and the chance of breaking a rule was eliminated through (a not too common) shared direction from both leaderships.

So to be clear. Two trackers were on ledge, as per rule. TMO had coth anchor set up a full 94 minutes prior to Trakanon being in window (saragirl) and remained uncontested in having an active anchor at zone in for about 25 minutes of traks window while we sorted out shit out, camped our trackers in order to gate people off etc. Ensuring at all times we never broke that rule. It was a shiftight, but again, there is no grey areas. I don't want to be part of kills where grey areas are concerned personally, I've been advocating for a pnp raid scene for over a year now (project2000 wru). Much to the disgust of some bloodthirsty colleagues of mine. Call it excellent timing and great work by a team with a distinct plan in order to secure us the best chance of engaging first.

Maybe next time we wont pull it off as jointly raiding means communication, direction and cohesion are second priorities to bickering, and a game of too many cowboys and not enough indians. Its very disadvantageous to act on the fly with the fluidity that IB core guys play with when we are helping to develop that mentality in apps and newer members, whilst at the same time work at the pace of; and in some sort of structure with FE (which is either faster or slower, for better or worse depending on the day or lunar cycle, not sure, but I like them for always surprising me good or bad!). We could of totally fucked trak up and looked like morons today, like any given sunday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myyWXKeBsNk

[Buriedpast]

If this goes to rnf, im out.

Absolutely no need. I wont partake in mud slinging, but I will in showing the truth, sharing an opinion, and an open discourse with respected competitors and friends within that guild.