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#1682
09-05-2022, 05:50 PM
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No. You will not win by simply trolling. That is all you have.
Reposting an overview of the discussion. This is the data given, so it is all we can use. It would be great if someone else posted some data. ============================Mage DPS=================================== This data is reportedly from a group Troxx had in Sebilis Crypt: [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] According to Troxx, his pet is buffed with Burnout IV, and it is a level 60 Water Pet Unfocused. Pet level is guessed at 1 level under max, since a few parses show the max hit of 58. Average pet DPS: (36 + 50 + 45 + 51 + 30 + 49 + 56 + 60 + 55) / 9 = 48 DPS. A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick sitting and 12 mana per tick standing. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with. Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600. Shock of Steel costs 275 mana. Let's assume the Mage has Conjuration Specialization. This reduces the cost to 248. Since the Mage will most likely lose 1 meditation tick due to the 6 second cast time, the mana cost goes back up to 268, to account for the 20 mana lost from not meditating. This means you can cast Shock of Steel 80 times per hour, assuming that is the only thing you do. Troxx's average casts per individual fight: (5 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 8) / 9 = 5. To pull this off, that means he is spending 1340 - 290 (9 med ticks + 1 standing tick) = 1050 mana per encounter. After 3 encounters he would be out of mana, so there is no way he can sustain the DPS numbers provided. This is why we use the average of 1 nuke per minute, as it is not realistic to be nuking at a high DPS consistently. 74.22 is also close to the overall encounter of 80 DPS, so there is no reason to doubt the individual sets vs. the whole set. Average player DPS without clickies: (825 damage x 80 nukes) / 3600 seconds = 18.33 DPS. Using a https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem , which is a level 49 Sebilis mob and similar to Crypt mobs, an unslowed mob did 74 hits in 144 seconds. (74 x 33) / 144 = 16.95 DPS Slowing the same mob above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E , the DPS of the damage shield is reduced to 3.9 DPS. 26 hits x 33 Damge over 220 seconds = 3.9 DPS. This makes sense, since the mob was slowed 75%, and 4 is 25% of 16. Average Damage Shield DPS: 16.95 DPS. Average Damage Shield DPS with slow: 3.9 DPS. The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more: Average Total DPS without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 16.95 = 83.28 DPS Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 35.29 + 16.95 = 100.24 DPS Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 24.66 + 16.95 = 89.61 DPS Average Total DPS without clickies on a slowed mob: 48 + 18.33 + 3.9 = 70.23 DPS Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling on a slowed mob: 48 + 35.29 + 3.9 = 87.19 DPS Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff on a slowed mob: 48 + 24.66 + 3.9 = 76.56 DPS The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow: Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 11.45 = 77.78 DPS The Direct damage number is lower because you would realistically only be able to nuke once per minute due to mana, so ((825 * 0.5) / 36) = 11.45 DPS Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 16.66 + 16.95 = 81.61 DPS The DPS is halved on this due to it being difficult to realistically get two 17 second casts off in 36 seconds. Average Total DPS in 36 seconds https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 18.5 + 16.95 = 83.45 DPS ============================Shaman DPS=================================== https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg - Pet DPS video, logs are attached in description. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Shaman Torpor Mana Recovery Video. Pet DPS is using a max level pet with Celerity (50% haste), Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit. Average pet DPS: 7321 damage over 414 seconds = 17.7 DPS A Shaman with max Torpor and Clarity II is regenerating mana at rougly 16 mana per second. Let's assume this Shaman has 3000 Mana to start with. Max mana per hour: (16 x 3600) + 3000 = 60600. Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt cost 745 mana total. This means you could cast this combination 81 a maximum of times per hour. You would not be using Conjuraton Specialization typically, so the number doesn't change. Average player DPS without clickies (Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt): ((1648 + 1278) x 60) / 3600 seconds = 48.76 DPS. The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more: Average Total DPS without clickies: 17.7 + 48.76 = 66.46 DPS Average Total DPS with JBB: 17.7 + 32.88 = 50.58 DPS Average Total DPS with 1 Epic Click + 1x Pox + 2x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 63 = 80.7 DPS The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow: Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies (2x Ice Strike): 17.7 + 37.5 = 55.2 DPS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E - Shaman Quick DPS video, logs are attached in description. Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with JBB: 17.7 + 29.22 = 46.92 DPS Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with 1x JBB and 1x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 35.25 = 52.95 DPS This would be a bit more mana efficient than 2x Ice Strikes, could do more DPS if the mob takes longer to kill, and is the same cast time as 2x Ice Strikes. ============================Difference in DPS=================================== The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more: Average Total DPS difference without clickies: 83.28 DPS (Mage) - 66.46 DPS (Shaman) = 26.82 DPS Average Total DPS difference with best clickies: 100.24 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 19.54 DPS Average Total DPS difference with best clickies on a slowed mob: 87.19 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 6.49 DPS The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow: Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference without clickies: 77.78 DPS (Mage) - 55.2 DPS (Shaman) = 22.58 DPS Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference with best clickies: 83.45 DPS - 52.95 DPS = 30.5 DPS The Difference is between 6.49 DPS and 30.5 DPS, depending on the setup of the Mage vs. the Shaman, the killspeed, and if a mob is slowed. ============================Conclusion============ ======================= The reason for this breakdown is because the debate is choosing between Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric or Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric for OP's question. The argument for Mage is DPS + Malo + Charm Break Safety. A Shaman has both Charm Break Safety (Pet + Torpor) and a better Malo -> Malosini chance, due to Malo being better than Mala. This is why they are much better at high end level 60 camps such as Ixiblat Fer, Fungi King, Cliff Golems, West Waste Dragons, etc. They can tank better and they can slow better. This is also where Shamans can increase their DPS, since a mob with more HP is going to take longer to kill. This means you can use your DoTs to full effect. When looking at DPS, you can see that you will only lose 7-30 DPS when picking a Shaman over a Mage, depending on the situation. Using Troxx's Data, you can see that two charmed level 47 mobs with a Torch and Haste would do 86x2 = 172 DPS. This means you are looking at a difference between 255 DPS and 225 DPS at best. When killing a mob with 8000 HP, the difference would be 31 seconds vs. 36 seconds. The Mage is only saving 5 seconds per kill, and offers very little else. If your group is killing 20 mobs on a 30 minute timer, you are saving roughly 3 minutes per hour. To get an extra mob cycle, you would need to be at that camp for 10 hours. DPS loses efficiency as you stack more. For example, 2x Enchanters and 2x other group members would easily have a total of 200 DPS. At 200 DPS, it takes 40 seconds to kill a mob with 8000 HP. If you simply had 4x Enchanters to increase your DPS to 400, you would only decrease the kill time to 20 seconds. Even though you doubled your DPS, you only got half of the time decrease. The other debate that spawned was whether to take a Shaman or not based on them being less useful at low levels. It is true Shamans don't come into their own until level 30 or so, but this is true for Enchanters and clerics too. https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...postcount=1273 This post shows a level 24 warrior out-DPSing a level 27 charmed pet with 37% haste and a Torch. Enchanter charm isn't as powerful as people think at lower levels, plus Enchanters have to deal with more meditating, lower mana pool, more fizzles, more interrupts, resists, etc. The 2x Enchanters in this group aren't going to be as good as melees with 2k worth of gear. The cleric is also going to bring fairly little to the table. This shouldn't deter you from bringing these classes, as they are well worth the wait once you get to level 30 or so. Luckily leveling from 1-30 is going to be super easy with any group of 4, so this shouldn't be a big consideration. Finally, this debate is looking at all level ranges, from 1-60, including level 60 item farming. It is up to the user to decide whether they want to pick a Mage for slightly faster kill speeds from levels 1-60 and during level 60 farming, or pick a Shaman for their superior utility and safety. This is very useful when farming level 60 camps like Fungi King and Ixiblat Fer. Honestly a group of 4 casters is already going to level extremely quickly, so I do not believe the Mage is worth it. A slightly better leveling experience does not make up for a Mage bringing very little at the end. OP has already chosen his group (Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Mage), so it is a draw in terms of the debate. I personally would go for Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Cleric.
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#1683
09-05-2022, 06:27 PM
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Hate to break it to ya...
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1: Mage is a better group DPS class than Shaman
2: Enchanters solo better than Warriors These statements are not up for debate amongst sane human beings Why does <Vanquish> allow DSM to be a member? | |||
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#1685
09-05-2022, 07:12 PM
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It's pretty sad to say someone else has lost when the only thing you have brought to the argument is 600+ posts of memes and insults, and no data lol.
Reposting an overview of the discussion. This is the data given, so it is all we can use. It would be great if someone else posted some data. ============================Mage DPS=================================== This data is reportedly from a group Troxx had in Sebilis Crypt: [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] According to Troxx, his pet is buffed with Burnout IV, and it is a level 60 Water Pet Unfocused. Pet level is guessed at 1 level under max, since a few parses show the max hit of 58. Average pet DPS: (36 + 50 + 45 + 51 + 30 + 49 + 56 + 60 + 55) / 9 = 48 DPS. A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick sitting and 12 mana per tick standing. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with. Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600. Shock of Steel costs 275 mana. Let's assume the Mage has Conjuration Specialization. This reduces the cost to 248. Since the Mage will most likely lose 1 meditation tick due to the 6 second cast time, the mana cost goes back up to 268, to account for the 20 mana lost from not meditating. This means you can cast Shock of Steel 80 times per hour, assuming that is the only thing you do. Troxx's average casts per individual fight: (5 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 8) / 9 = 5. To pull this off, that means he is spending 1340 - 290 (9 med ticks + 1 standing tick) = 1050 mana per encounter. After 3 encounters he would be out of mana, so there is no way he can sustain the DPS numbers provided. This is why we use the average of 1 nuke per minute, as it is not realistic to be nuking at a high DPS consistently. 74.22 is also close to the overall encounter of 80 DPS, so there is no reason to doubt the individual sets vs. the whole set. Average player DPS without clickies: (825 damage x 80 nukes) / 3600 seconds = 18.33 DPS. Using a https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem , which is a level 49 Sebilis mob and similar to Crypt mobs, an unslowed mob did 74 hits in 144 seconds. (74 x 33) / 144 = 16.95 DPS Slowing the same mob above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E , the DPS of the damage shield is reduced to 3.9 DPS. 26 hits x 33 Damge over 220 seconds = 3.9 DPS. This makes sense, since the mob was slowed 75%, and 4 is 25% of 16. Average Damage Shield DPS: 16.95 DPS. Average Damage Shield DPS with slow: 3.9 DPS. The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more: Average Total DPS without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 16.95 = 83.28 DPS Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 35.29 + 16.95 = 100.24 DPS Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 24.66 + 16.95 = 89.61 DPS Average Total DPS without clickies on a slowed mob: 48 + 18.33 + 3.9 = 70.23 DPS Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling on a slowed mob: 48 + 35.29 + 3.9 = 87.19 DPS Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff on a slowed mob: 48 + 24.66 + 3.9 = 76.56 DPS The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow: Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 11.45 = 77.78 DPS The Direct damage number is lower because you would realistically only be able to nuke once per minute due to mana, so ((825 * 0.5) / 36) = 11.45 DPS Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 16.66 + 16.95 = 81.61 DPS The DPS is halved on this due to it being difficult to realistically get two 17 second casts off in 36 seconds. Average Total DPS in 36 seconds https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 18.5 + 16.95 = 83.45 DPS ============================Shaman DPS=================================== https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg - Pet DPS video, logs are attached in description. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Shaman Torpor Mana Recovery Video. Pet DPS is using a max level pet with Celerity (50% haste), Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit. Average pet DPS: 7321 damage over 414 seconds = 17.7 DPS A Shaman with max Torpor and Clarity II is regenerating mana at rougly 16 mana per second. Let's assume this Shaman has 3000 Mana to start with. Max mana per hour: (16 x 3600) + 3000 = 60600. Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt cost 745 mana total. This means you could cast this combination 81 a maximum of times per hour. You would not be using Conjuraton Specialization typically, so the number doesn't change. Average player DPS without clickies (Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt): ((1648 + 1278) x 60) / 3600 seconds = 48.76 DPS. The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more: Average Total DPS without clickies: 17.7 + 48.76 = 66.46 DPS Average Total DPS with JBB: 17.7 + 32.88 = 50.58 DPS Average Total DPS with 1 Epic Click + 1x Pox + 2x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 63 = 80.7 DPS The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow: Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies (2x Ice Strike): 17.7 + 37.5 = 55.2 DPS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E - Shaman Quick DPS video, logs are attached in description. Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with JBB: 17.7 + 29.22 = 46.92 DPS Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with 1x JBB and 1x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 35.25 = 52.95 DPS This would be a bit more mana efficient than 2x Ice Strikes, could do more DPS if the mob takes longer to kill, and is the same cast time as 2x Ice Strikes. ============================Difference in DPS=================================== The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more: Average Total DPS difference without clickies: 83.28 DPS (Mage) - 66.46 DPS (Shaman) = 26.82 DPS Average Total DPS difference with best clickies: 100.24 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 19.54 DPS Average Total DPS difference with best clickies on a slowed mob: 87.19 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 6.49 DPS The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow: Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference without clickies: 77.78 DPS (Mage) - 55.2 DPS (Shaman) = 22.58 DPS Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference with best clickies: 83.45 DPS - 52.95 DPS = 30.5 DPS The Difference is between 6.49 DPS and 30.5 DPS, depending on the setup of the Mage vs. the Shaman, the killspeed, and if a mob is slowed. ============================Conclusion============ ======================= The reason for this breakdown is because the debate is choosing between Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric or Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric for OP's question. The argument for Mage is DPS + Malo + Charm Break Safety. A Shaman has both Charm Break Safety (Pet + Torpor) and a better Malo -> Malosini chance, due to Malo being better than Mala. This is why they are much better at high end level 60 camps such as Ixiblat Fer, Fungi King, Cliff Golems, West Waste Dragons, etc. They can tank better and they can slow better. This is also where Shamans can increase their DPS, since a mob with more HP is going to take longer to kill. This means you can use your DoTs to full effect. When looking at DPS, you can see that you will only lose 7-30 DPS when picking a Shaman over a Mage, depending on the situation. Using Troxx's Data, you can see that two charmed level 47 mobs with a Torch and Haste would do 86x2 = 172 DPS. This means you are looking at a difference between 255 DPS and 225 DPS at best. When killing a mob with 8000 HP, the difference would be 31 seconds vs. 36 seconds. The Mage is only saving 5 seconds per kill, and offers very little else. If your group is killing 20 mobs on a 30 minute timer, you are saving roughly 3 minutes per hour. To get an extra mob cycle, you would need to be at that camp for 10 hours. DPS loses efficiency as you stack more. For example, 2x Enchanters and 2x other group members would easily have a total of 200 DPS. At 200 DPS, it takes 40 seconds to kill a mob with 8000 HP. If you simply had 4x Enchanters to increase your DPS to 400, you would only decrease the kill time to 20 seconds. Even though you doubled your DPS, you only got half of the time decrease. The other debate that spawned was whether to take a Shaman or not based on them being less useful at low levels. It is true Shamans don't come into their own until level 30 or so, but this is true for Enchanters and clerics too. https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...postcount=1273 This post shows a level 24 warrior out-DPSing a level 27 charmed pet with 37% haste and a Torch. Enchanter charm isn't as powerful as people think at lower levels, plus Enchanters have to deal with more meditating, lower mana pool, more fizzles, more interrupts, resists, etc. The 2x Enchanters in this group aren't going to be as good as melees with 2k worth of gear. The cleric is also going to bring fairly little to the table. This shouldn't deter you from bringing these classes, as they are well worth the wait once you get to level 30 or so. Luckily leveling from 1-30 is going to be super easy with any group of 4, so this shouldn't be a big consideration. Finally, this debate is looking at all level ranges, from 1-60, including level 60 item farming. It is up to the user to decide whether they want to pick a Mage for slightly faster kill speeds from levels 1-60 and during level 60 farming, or pick a Shaman for their superior utility and safety. This is very useful when farming level 60 camps like Fungi King and Ixiblat Fer. Honestly a group of 4 casters is already going to level extremely quickly, so I do not believe the Mage is worth it. A slightly better leveling experience does not make up for a Mage bringing very little at the end. OP has already chosen his group (Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Mage), so it is a draw in terms of the debate. I personally would go for Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Cleric.
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#1687
09-05-2022, 08:22 PM
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Can't wait to see another copy paste of pure trash information [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
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1: Mage is a better group DPS class than Shaman
2: Enchanters solo better than Warriors These statements are not up for debate amongst sane human beings Why does <Vanquish> allow DSM to be a member? | |||
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Last edited by PlsNoBan; 09-05-2022 at 08:25 PM..
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#1688
09-05-2022, 09:57 PM
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If there's one good thing we can get out of this thread, it's that DSM is never going to be taken seriously again. He has completely tarnished his reputation as a voice of wisdom.
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#1689
09-05-2022, 10:05 PM
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200+ troll posts from PlsNoBan that are just insults/memes. Mostly accusing me of autism (big yikes). 200+ troll posts from Troxx that are just insults/memes. 100+ posts of complete nonsense from Cyxthryth. 50+ posts from Gloomlord that are just insults/memes. 40+ posts from Karanis that are just insults/memes. 40+ posts from Toxigen that are just insults/memes. 40+ posts from Ripqozko that are just insults/memes. 20+ posts from Chortles Snortles that are just insults/memes. You and your troll friends have accumulated 700+ posts that are literally just insults and memes. You turned this thread into an RnF thread. That is a terrible look. I'll take my post history any day. I am not sure why you think you can just hide this. You don't get to "win" a debate by simply drowning out other people's information in trolling. I have actual data and math backing up my information, you don't. Admit you are wrong or actually contribute to the conversation.
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