And I raaaaaan, I raaaan so far awaaaayyyy

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Wrei [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Seems to me these "GM discretion calls" will only result in more threads from whoever is butt hurt on the outcome. Rules may promote the spirit of fairness but they are there to maintain consistency not "trying to do the right thing". From time to time, some will genuinely get shafted over something but that's when the rules can get modified to accommodate such eventualities. Not changed on the fly (however merited) by a GM. If you maintain the stance that "we'll always have to come in and make you crybabies play nice it will only lead to more drama.

GM's should deal with all other issues bugs/scams etc... anything BUT the raid loot scene (unless the boss bugs loot). People are all inherently greedy, if you open things to interpretations, they will only try to twist it to their advantage and spin it here by playing the victim card. Instead of trying to decide who is right and wrong in this instance it may be time to take a serious look at the rules themselves. Make it more black and white so little drama queens will have a harder time trying to spin it. There's plenty of options, perhaps a thread on the server board by a GM to ask the masses what the new rules should reflect will be more productive than two guilds pissing each other here.

As for this particular instance, it all boils down to how many people FE had in zone. "Raidforce" is really a tricky business, I mean it's obvious TMO feels FE was just trolling with the snipe as they didn't have enough to down CT (What is that number btw TMO? Is it like less than 40 = GTFO? Sorry [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]). Cause if FE Did have legit numbers to down him then yeah from their perspective it would be a straight ks fest after they felt they got the tag. It could also be argued FE even with the bare minimum was not "Ready" to engage and just tagged early in the hopes TMO kills CT for them and they could sketch out the loot like true pro raiders (ok I'll stop :P).

See where I'm going with this? Everyone will have a different opinion and even if it were frapsed, everyone would have a different interpretation of it. Not claiming Ephi did the wrong decision, just saying the fact he had to make a "gut call" is what makes the whole rule situation silly and open to debate.

Either hard code FTE with a clear shout, if opposing guilds do more dmg than FTE guild then ban their accounts for 6months. Force rotations between raid ready guild (I'm sure the mass of casuals will all jizz over this idea). KS group determines Loot rights. Allow everything to go, training, ks'ing... and start a Darwinian process of retards until they realize cooperation is better than ass munching. W/e it is, decide on something other than "We'll decide on a case by case basis if the rules apply here".

PS: Still would like to know how many FE had in zone ready when CT got aggroed, and would still like to hear what a "raid force" is under the TMO standards.

Its not about numbers, its about the fact they "claim" they were trying to pull CT. With Fear at full pop numbers just help you down CT before the train wipes you. "Pulling" CT just allows the train to catch up faster and more DT's to go out.

Pulling CT is a fail tactic even for 40 people.

[Ephi]

Now that we've all had some time to cool off (maybe)... a few notes for you all:

1. Despite this post existing in RnF, I think there have been some solid discussions and viewpoints from both sides of the ruling yesterday. I hope you all can continue to debate the merits of my decision yesterday. It's nothing but healthy for the server, the raiding guilds involved, and the GM staff.

2. As long as there is more than 1 guild raiding, there will be staff judgements made regarding certain scenarios which play out but perhaps enter a gray area in the server raiding rules. This will never go away. Staff intervention will almost always be required, regardless of the ruleset. To a certain extent, it's why we exist on the server. If this was not true, I'm sure Rogean would just patch some code in to transfer the loot to whoever appeared first on the aggro list for each encounter. Problem solved, right?

3. Some have suggested that this is completely unprecedented, and it's certainly not. Nor will this incident stand alone in the history of decisions going forward. As mentioned in point #2, GM staff is here to weigh in on encounters and make decisions to the best of their abilities. The rules help inform staff decisions on awarding loot. Period. I would challenge anyone to come up with a set of rules that can determine who is awarded a kill by themselves, without a human touch, for all possible scenarios. That said, we certainly seek to work toward that goal more and more.

To those of you who strongly disagree with my decision yesterday, please note that I'm sorry you got the short end of this one, and that I've been in similar situations myself (both on live, and here). It sucks to be robbed of loot, no matter how good or bad it might be. But from my view point, the correct decision was made based on a very many number of variables in this particular encounter.

While we'd love to be present for every encounter to make sure things don't happen, we obviously cannot. In situations where we are not present, the rules and guidelines set forth provide the best information toward our decisions. But when we can, we'll be present and interpret the rules as we see fit, collectively. I emphasize that because although there is some interpretation, it is certainly not an individual effort. We constantly look for feedback internally and continually improve not only our judgement of rules, but the rules themselves. No decision is made in a vacuum.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Ephi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now that we've all had some time to cool off (maybe)... a few notes for you all:

1. Despite this post existing in RnF, I think there have been some solid discussions and viewpoints from both sides of the ruling yesterday. I hope you all can continue to debate the merits of my decision yesterday. It's nothing but healthy for the server, the raiding guilds involved, and the GM staff.

2. As long as there is more than 1 guild raiding, there will be staff judgements made regarding certain scenarios which play out but perhaps enter a gray area in the server raiding rules. This will never go away. Staff intervention will almost always be required, regardless of the ruleset. To a certain extent, it's why we exist on the server. If this was not true, I'm sure Rogean would just patch some code in to transfer the loot to whoever appeared first on the aggro list for each encounter. Problem solved, right?

3. Some have suggested that this is completely unprecedented, and it's certainly not. Nor will this incident stand alone in the history of decisions going forward. As mentioned in point #2, GM staff is here to weigh in on encounters and make decisions to the best of their abilities. The rules help inform staff decisions on awarding loot. Period. I would challenge anyone to come up with a set of rules that can determine who is awarded a kill by themselves, without a human touch, for all possible scenarios. That said, we certainly seek to work toward that goal more and more.

To those of you who strongly disagree with my decision yesterday, please note that I'm sorry you got the short end of this one, and that I've been in similar situations myself (both on live, and here). It sucks to be robbed of loot, no matter how good or bad it might be. But from my view point, the correct decision was made based on a very many number of variables in this particular encounter.

While we'd love to be present for every encounter to make sure things don't happen, we obviously cannot. In situations where we are not present, the rules and guidelines set forth provide the best information toward our decisions. But when we can, we'll be present and interpret the rules as we see fit, collectively. I emphasize that because although there is some interpretation, it is certainly not an individual effort. We constantly look for feedback internally and continually improve not only our judgement of rules, but the rules themselves. No decision is made in a vacuum.

#2 Should show you all that this problem will never be solved. Now Red really is looking better.

[Ele]

Originally Posted by Ephi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now that we've all had some time to cool off (maybe)... a few notes for you all:

1. Despite this post existing in RnF, I think there have been some solid discussions and viewpoints from both sides of the ruling yesterday. I hope you all can continue to debate the merits of my decision yesterday. It's nothing but healthy for the server, the raiding guilds involved, and the GM staff.

2. As long as there is more than 1 guild raiding, there will be staff judgements made regarding certain scenarios which play out but perhaps enter a gray area in the server raiding rules. This will never go away. Staff intervention will almost always be required, regardless of the ruleset. To a certain extent, it's why we exist on the server. If this was not true, I'm sure Rogean would just patch some code in to transfer the loot to whoever appeared first on the aggro list for each encounter. Problem solved, right?

3. Some have suggested that this is completely unprecedented, and it's certainly not. Nor will this incident stand alone in the history of decisions going forward. As mentioned in point #2, GM staff is here to weigh in on encounters and make decisions to the best of their abilities. The rules help inform staff decisions on awarding loot. Period. I would challenge anyone to come up with a set of rules that can determine who is awarded a kill by themselves, without a human touch, for all possible scenarios. That said, we certainly seek to work toward that goal more and more.

To those of you who strongly disagree with my decision yesterday, please note that I'm sorry you got the short end of this one, and that I've been in similar situations myself (both on live, and here). It sucks to be robbed of loot, no matter how good or bad it might be. But from my view point, the correct decision was made based on a very many number of variables in this particular encounter.

While we'd love to be present for every encounter to make sure things don't happen, we obviously cannot. In situations where we are not present, the rules and guidelines set forth provide the best information toward our decisions. But when we can, we'll be present and interpret the rules as we see fit, collectively. I emphasize that because although there is some interpretation, it is certainly not an individual effort. We constantly look for feedback internally and continually improve not only our judgement of rules, but the rules themselves. No decision is made in a vacuum.

So to clarify, if no GM/Guide is present to witness nor fraps/log evidence is presented, a simple FTE in the encounter log will rule the day?

If a GM/Guide is present they will subjectively analyze the situation to judge whether or not a "sufficient raid force" is present and/or a "sufficient attempt" was made?

FTE will not count if a "raid" only has one person on the encounter log?

At this point, the thread stating the raiding rules needs to be updated to account for the individual rulings and nuances in the multitude of threads that have occurred since it was last revised.

[Ephi]

Originally Posted by Ele [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So to clarify, if no GM/Guide is present to witness nor fraps/log evidence is presented, a simple FTE in the encounter log will rule the day?

If a GM/Guide is present they will subjectively analyze the situation to judge whether or not a "sufficient raid force" is present and/or a "sufficient attempt" was made?

FTE will not count if a "raid" only has one person on the encounter log?

At this point, the thread stating the raiding rules needs to be updated to account for the individual rulings and nuances in the multitude of threads that have occurred since it was last revised.

This is not in any way an accurate depiction. You cannot narrow down complex decisions and scenarios to 3 bullet points.

GMs will make decisions to the best of their abilities with the information made available to them, whether server logs of player fraps or whatever.

It has always been this way. Absolutely nothing has changed.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Ephi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is not in any way an accurate depiction. You cannot narrow down complex decisions and scenarios to 3 bullet points.

GMs will make decisions to the best of their abilities with the information made available to them, whether server logs of player fraps or whatever.

It has always been this way. Absolutely nothing has changed.

I agree completely, GM's have always made judgment calls when they are at raids. When they aren't there obviously they have to go off logs or fraps.

Logs or fraps hardly ever explain the full situation so my preferable situations would be to have a GM watch every raid, or to have no staff involvement in raid disputes and allow us to run wild.
Preferably, the second option.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Ephi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Absolutely nothing has changed.

Obviously.

[Ele]

Originally Posted by Ephi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is not in any way an accurate depiction. You cannot narrow down complex decisions and scenarios to 3 bullet points.

GMs will make decisions to the best of their abilities with the information made available to them, whether server logs of player fraps or whatever.

It has always been this way, it is this way, and it always will be this way. There's no getting around it.

Basically, players can't read the rules and enter a raid zone and know what the result is going to be. Players will have to take each encounter on a case-by-case basis and hope it works out in their favor after the fact.

Even with FTE shouts, based on the recent rulings it will still cause different outcomes after the fact.

[Tanthallas]

Originally Posted by Ele [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Even with FTE shouts, based on the recent rulings it will still cause different outcomes after the fact.

This.

[Tanthallas]

You are not the judge of sanity or insanity, fortunately for everyone here.

You have no idea what was going on with the other raid forces, what they may or may not have done, in what context that pull was attempted, etc. Instead you choose to speculate, and you conveniently settle on the conclusions most suitable to your arguments.

The bottom line is that rules are set in place not to try to figure out what is in peoples heads or why they are doing things, but instead to set up a framework within which people can act such that they get rewarded or punished. The discussion with everyone else is about this framework. Seeing as you continually shit up the thread with vague and subjective bases for what you think happened or what you think the rules are, this concept seems to have eluded you.