RAID SUSPENSION RESOLUTIONS

[SantagarBrax]

Originally Posted by SantagarBrax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

(figuring out how to cheat to shave miliseconds)

I conflated FTE Lockout with Rotations. Still.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by SantagarBrax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It turns this server into another non-competitive server just like all the rest and loses its appeal.

This is already a non-competitive server. The competitive server is over on Red. Enough with "but we want competition". That is absolutely false.

For over ten years this server has had to endure sweaty try-hards dictating to the rest of the server how the raid scene has to work. Because they want "competition". Yet any time actual competition has ever arisen through an alliance, a merger, etc. those efforts have been met with trolling on the forums, petitionquest, subterfuge, and whatever else the "metagame" that plays out on forums and in game entails.

The real competition is over on Red. Go for it. You want a raid target? Mobilize for it. Fight another guild for it. Train the hell out of everyone else. Steal the kill with a DPS group. Establish a defensive perimeter against PVP. Create tons of alts and COTH bots and ranger Trueshot strike squads. Batphone away. No more raid petitions ever, GMs! Work it all out in PVP. True, unadulterated competition. To the victors go the spoils! Lord all those shiny pixels in the faces of the defeated. Losers lick their wounds and try again next cycle. Make a secret alliance. Betray your allies in the final moments. More drama and competition than you could ever want!

See, their mouths should be slathering with drool over this. Right?

No, they don't want "competition". They want "competition" on their terms. Not actual competition. They need casuals to be jealous of their gear. They need petitionquest to lawyer around loopholes when they lose a target. And so the raid scene on Blue has stayed toxic and controlled by a minority for over TEN YEARS, so a handful of players can receive their validation and stroke their egos at the expense of the other 80% of the community.

Move the guilds who want real competition (if any) to Red. Let guilds who can work together in a rotation stay. No more raid petitions. No need for them. It's almost a no-brainer, really.

So why not? What's the real reason?

[SantagarBrax]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is already a non-competitive server. The competitive server is over on Red. Enough with "but we want competition". That is absolutely false.

You haven't been raiding on Blue recently by this statement, or perhaps ever?

Believe it or not, while the past year of no competition at the raid scene or little competition, no offense intended towards anyone, has had it's benefits with more loot dropped and cheaper prices on loot, a majority of the raiders welcome competition.

What we didn't expect was an all out escalation in tactics against the PNP policy and against established raid precedents with little to no enforcement.

Outside of these tactics and the Vulak stalemates, things have been enjoyable and I think the majority of raiders would agree.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by SantagarBrax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You haven't been raiding on Blue recently by this statement, or perhaps ever?

Believe it or not, while the past year of no competition at the raid scene or little competition, no offense intended towards anyone, has had it's benefits with more loot dropped and cheaper prices on loot, a majority of the raiders welcome competition.

What we didn't expect was an all out escalation in tactics against the PNP policy and against established raid precedents with little to no enforcement.

Outside of these tactics and the Vulak stalemates, things have been enjoyable and I think the majority of raiders would agree.

I raided on Blue until Velious was released, and kept up with the forums well after that. If you raided during that time, or even the year or two after Velious released, you would know full well how toxic the raid scene was -- so if you weren't around for it, then a) consider yourself lucky, and b) I understand how you may not share the same perspective. I'm happy you have had one year of relatively drama free raiding. I can't help but notice that year overlaps with the opening of another P99 server that was ripe for domination.

But yeah, I'm on Green now where the Blue raid scene will most likely happen all over again relatively soon. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Endonde]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, they don't want "competition". They want "competition" on their terms. Not actual competition. They need casuals to be jealous of their gear. They need petitionquest to lawyer around loopholes when they lose a target. And so the raid scene on Blue has stayed toxic and controlled by a minority for over TEN YEARS, so a handful of players can receive their validation and stroke their egos at the expense of the other 80% of the community.

Pretty much exactly that, the majority of people who say they want competition don't even really want it, they just want to brag about denying others in RnF. The minority of players who want to continue that toxic mentality dictate the way the majority has to play the game, and until you fix that problem nothing will ever change.

Even in the past the top guilds have rotated targets amongst themselves to avoid competition while maintaining their monopoly on content. It really makes no sense in a time locked server that has been in Velious for 6 years that we are still trying to fight over the same pixels.

[SantagarBrax]

Originally Posted by Endonde [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pretty much exactly that, the majority of people who say they want competition don't even really want it, they just want to brag about denying others in RnF. The minority of players who want to continue that toxic mentality dictate the way the majority has to play the game, and until you fix that problem nothing will ever change.

Even in the past the top guilds have rotated targets amongst themselves to avoid competition while maintaining their monopoly on content. It really makes no sense in a time locked server that has been in Velious for 6 years that we are still trying to fight over the same pixels.

This isn't true.

Racing against Furoar on a Dain FTE is exhilarating even though I haven't beaten him yet. Seeing ridiculously complex tactics implemented and actually working is impressive, engaging, and provides motivation to innovate and interact more to accomplish a task.

When AG/F first started kiting 6 Vulak guards around, with the guards going back to Vulak and being kited back out again while successfully ending up in a kill, it was simply impressive. When Riot wiped on Vulak and was able to recover quick enough to beat AG/F out on a new FTE, and kill Vulak after a 40 minute all out war against attrition attempting to get to mana neutral while CR'ing, was phenomenal.

I've seen some amazing feats performed by various guilds over there years and there are numerous examples, too many to list. All of these feats bring a whole new excitement and sense of accomplishment to the game that will never been seen again due to "rotations" or whatever ruleset is implemented that decreases interaction between players.


EDIT:
THIS is why we play the raid scene, even with all of the problems that come along with it. THIS is why, 6 years after Velious dropped, 20 years after the game launched, we are still seeing new, innovative and complex maneuvers pulled off to win a kill on a target. Some people just don't understand this and I hope this post helps.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by SantagarBrax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When AG/F first started kiting 6 Vulak guards around, with the guards going back to Vulak and being kited back out again while successfully ending up in a kill, it was simply impressive. When Riot wiped on Vulak and was able to recover quick enough to beat AG/F out on a new FTE, and kill Vulak after a 40 minute all out war against attrition attempting to get to mana neutral while CR'ing, was phenomenal.

Yes, but imagine how even more impressive and phenomenal pulling that off would be while defending that attempt against a competing guild PVPing them! Why, they would go down in competition history and become legends!

I've seen some amazing feats performed by various guilds over there years and there are numerous examples, too many to list. All of these feats bring a whole new excitement and sense of accomplishment to the game that will never been seen again due to "rotations" or whatever ruleset is implemented that decreases interaction between players.

You're right... so moving these guilds who want competition over to Red is a step in the right direction because it will INCREASE interaction between players. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I'm not trying to pick on you, you are just making points that I feel like my solution addresses.

See how Red = Competitive is just the right answer for solving this? The solution is already there... competitive guilds just need to accept true competition and not their convenient definition of competition.

Then we have a rotation server and, more importantly to players sharing your mindset and the exhausted GMs, a competitive/race/FTE server that, by design, does not generate raid petitions because everyone competing has the ability to work it out themselves.

How is this not a win-win-win-win for casuals, competitive players, GMs, and the 4 people who still play Red that would like to see a higher population?

I think it boils down to "I can't handle the true raw competition of another guild able to PVP me or not being able to petitionquest an encounter... I just want light competition" or maybe just simply "well, if we're all winning and losing raid targets, who can I show off my pixels to in order to receive validation?"

[supercalif]

Originally Posted by SantagarBrax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This isn't true.

Racing against Furoar on a Dain FTE is exhilarating even though I haven't beaten him yet. Seeing ridiculously complex tactics implemented and actually working is impressive, engaging, and provides motivation to innovate and interact more to accomplish a task.

When AG/F first started kiting 6 Vulak guards around, with the guards going back to Vulak and being kited back out again while successfully ending up in a kill, it was simply impressive. When Riot wiped on Vulak and was able to recover quick enough to beat AG/F out on a new FTE, and kill Vulak after a 40 minute all out war against attrition attempting to get to mana neutral while CR'ing, was phenomenal.

I've seen some amazing feats performed by various guilds over there years and there are numerous examples, too many to list. All of these feats bring a whole new excitement and sense of accomplishment to the game that will never been seen again due to "rotations" or whatever ruleset is implemented that decreases interaction between players.


EDIT:
THIS is why we play the raid scene, even with all of the problems that come along with it. THIS is why, 6 years after Velious dropped, 20 years after the game launched, we are still seeing new, innovative and complex maneuvers pulled off to win a kill on a target. Some people just don't understand this and I hope this post helps.

This is a great post. As an active raider in AG this is why I log in to raid each week/day. Could we do without the extreme socking and petty behaviour at times? Of course but the fundamentals shouldn’t change or else you’ll lose the heart of the server.

We needed more concise rules that remove the guesswork and require petitions.

If I wanted it to be easy I wouldn’t be playing classic Everquest.

[White_knight]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is already a non-competitive server. The competitive server is over on Red. Enough with "but we want competition". That is absolutely false.

As someone who has played both Red99 and Blue99 this statement is utterly and completely false.

Red is so uncompetitive in the Raid scene, it's a pixel pathway aslong as you join the current #1 team. Why do you think all that's left on red is a few unemployed drug addicts and washed up blue players?

You have to remember historically 95-100% of raid pixels on Red go to 1 guild....and all you needed (past tense) to do was show up at X time to get a chance at them. Coupled with the fact that there aren't enough players to even compete with whatever #1 guild is at the time; i.e there never was 2-3 top tier raiding guilds at the same time.

On blue atleast guilds have to be proactive in trying to get their raid targets, pre-camp out, farm consumables.

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In terms of resolving Blues raid 'issues' IMHO it would be to create some form of instancing so that the top heavy server has more loot distribution. I disagree with making the WHOLE game instanced. I think only NTOV should be instanced. The rest of the game should remained open for Guild v Guild. In doing this it will open up NTOV to most guilds with a 5-7 day lock out timer.

Make it so whenever you zone in to an instanced version of NOTV it pops your toon back to the entrance so that CoTH bots can't be stationed around the zone trivializing the content. Also make all trash mob repop as normal (i.e it doesn't stay dead so you gotta clear it each time, or train mages around/rez scroll farm/monk FD corpse).

We're all 35 years+ now, I don't got time anymore to sit in NTOV for 24 hrs a week hoping I have enough DKP for 1 upgrade if my guild gets a tag at x,y,z raid target.

[Clazxiss]

Originally Posted by White_knight [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We're all 35 years+ now, I don't got time anymore to sit in NTOV for 24 hrs a week hoping I have enough DKP for 1 upgrade if my guild gets a tag at x,y,z raid target.

The 35 year old part hits the hardest and is probably the most frustrating to the GMs. They know they're player base is older, yet the players act like they're children. I mean, it's this kind of behavior that WoW payed the most attention to when they made quality of life improvements to MMO genre.