Catherins attempt at lawyering

[Llodd]

Lol fucking holy hell.

The level of disrespect to GM's is through the roof.

[kotton05]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So I mostly agree with you Dolic but let's try this hypothetical. Let's assume TMO is on the spawnpoint and gets FTE by the usual means. They either get to keep the loot because the Mage was factioned and the staff changes the scope of their statement or it's deemed illegal and the loot is destroyed. Doesn't it behoove Catherin and Taken to police this kind of thing to make sure the loot isn't destroyed and their time isn't wasted? I'd assume the solution would be that TMO is skipped in the next FFA Sev if it were a violation but it doesn't reimburse the time spent working on that kill.

Just curious, and be honest, in let's say the past 3 months how many times have TMO and IB resolved an incident by saying "ok we'll skip the next dragon because we fucked up this time"

We've skipped the next spawn more than you know. It sucks but we don't have to wait months to see it spawn again...

Also taken clearly violated the FTE rule and ruined a FFA sev yet nothing was done about it. Now taken is trying to rule lawyer and police stuff.... Smh.

[kotton05]

Chest you're biting the hand that feeds. We're all playing the same game here. Sirk and deru both rule pretty fair and do their best (although I may not be happy sometimes with it). With that said, we once had a talk (our guild liaisons and GM's) about frivilous petitions and how to settle amongst ourselves. TMO really tried to do that. Then we found to that over time even when we settled disputes with IB they would still petition us. It was close to a petition ratio of 3 IB to every 1 TMO petition iirc. So now we're forced to petition but we reluctantly filed stupid ones with fear of what the GM's said about wasting their time...

Now with that said... Is being punished for stupid petitions from raid guilds out of the question? If there was punishment that involved that I'm sure people would think long and hard about filing one or fabricating something like this. IB is great at filing 10 petitions in hopes one sticks. I wish I knew the GM's exact thoughts on filing petty claims...


TL[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]R Chest youre a lost cause. Catherine is a fabricator. The raid scene is doomed without some sort of case study or rules against stupid petitions.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am convinced you continue to phrase this way to intentionally drive me insane. Sirken not only helped to set up this meeting, helping to choose a date and time as well as being on the phone with Unbrella when we made the decision to attempt to mediate their dispute, and was also present for the entire discussion, being an integral part of the final decision to remove BDA from a RNagafen. Clearly being "browbeaten" when we are asked all of one time to set this up while working out another dispute involving TMO.

For the sake of my sanity please refrain from incorrectly conveying these events in the future.

Ok let's break this down. First, a timeline of the pertinent events.

1) 6/8/14 (give or take a day) Nagafen dies to Taken. BDA ran in with about 10 people at around 15% or something to get some hits in. Taken and BDA were of the opinion that Naggy was going down no matter what. TMO was of the opinion that Taken was wiping and by BDA assisting it cost them an attempt on Nagafen assuming Taken would have wiped.

Unbrella immediately files a petition saying as much. The official violation in his mind was that since BDA had trackers there and Taken had trackers there so once BDA assisted (regardless of the circumstances) BDA/Taken became a combined raidforce thus violating the more than two tracker rule.

As an insight to that incident, I wasn’t there. I didn’t make the call to go in and beat on Naggy, but from the officer present the entire thing was done as a goof on our side. The intent wasn’t “omg Taken is wiping, let’s make sure TMO doesn’t get dem pixels” even if was being spun like that. Whatever, let’s move on.


2) 6/14/14 (give or take a day) The infamous Dinacarl incident. This incident led to Sirken having a conversation with all the class R guild leaders separately (probably a week later or so) to discuss if GT was unfairly drummed out of the rotation. GT imploded soon after the incident because they had some very inept leadership. Class R did everything in our power to help them acclimate to the system.

During Sirken's conversation with me (that lasted nearly 2 hours) the topic of Unbrella's Nagafen petition came up. Sirken assured me it was a non issue and that it was case closed.


3) 7/29/14 TMO eats a VP raid suspension from an IB petition that dated back to May. TMO is obviously upset because they felt blindsided by it and I don’t blame them, I’d be pissed too.


4) 8/15/14 Derubael PMs me about a pending petition from TMO

Between points 3 and 4 TMO was going into full PetitionQuest mode. The staff had a fundamental shift as to how they were dealing with the petition system so Unbrella was making sure any and every possible petition that hadn’t been answered was going to get answered. TMO felt slighted by the way the IB petition against them was handled (rightfully so) so any old petitions that had been dismissed were being resurrected so the full scope of each incident could be analyzed and the new staff stance could be applied just like the IB petition.


Here’s the conversation between Derubael and I. Things got relatively heated because I was on vacation and I had felt lied to by Sirken at this point. Derubael and I don’t really get along lol…

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm being told that TMO has an outstanding petition against BDA/Taken. Since it's gone unresolved, we need a BDA representative to come sit down with myself, Sirken, Unbrella, and a Taken rep.

I'm not sure of the exact specifics. The BDA rep doesn't have to be you if you don't want to deal with this - just as long as it's someone with the authority to make a decision without needing to check with anyone.

Sirken and I are only there as moderators. We refuse to get involved in any capacity beyond that.

Let me know what a good time is for you/your rep. We'd like to get this resolved this weekend.

Originally Posted by Chest Rockwell

I have no information on this outstanding petition.

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Neither do I - but we're all going to sit down and hash it out regardless. They feel they have a legitimate claim and that needs to be addressed. What is a good time for you or your rep?

Originally Posted by Chest Rockwell

I don't want to send a rep to anything without information as to what it's about. The only thing I can think of is a Nagafen dispute from months ago where we finished off a kill Taken had FTE on without any coordination with Taken. Sirken 100% assured me via a conversation in our vent that the issue was closed, so give me more information and if it's legit I'll send a rep but I don't enjoy being summoned up on a whim over a dead issue that the head server GM said was closed just because Unbrella thinks he can strongarm us in a sitdown.

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm on the phone with the head server GM right now and we both agree this needs to be dealt with. I believe it is the situation you outlined with Nagafen and helping taken to down the target. We need a rep from BDA or we will just assume you guys are acquiescing to whatever TMO wants as a resolution. Since that's dumb, it would be great if you would send someone.

As a side note, when I send a PM asking for your cooperation as it relates to p99 I expect those requests to be followed. I don't want to have to be dealing with this in the first place and neither does Sirken so we'd appreciate some cooperation when being given a reasonable request. I wouldn't be bringing something up without consulting with my associate first anyway.

Let us know when you have time or a representative has time to sit down and go over this. Neither of us has done a thorough review of the situation - that's up to you guys as players to look at and come to an agreement on.

Originally Posted by Chest Rockwell

I want to Sirken to send me a PM stating that we're being called to the carpet on an issue that he said to me personally that was resolved. If you want to talk to someone hop in BDA and find an officer. Sadad and cucs are in the loop.

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know what your issue is with me, or why you feel the need to constantly be difficult, but I'm tired of it. We have enough to do without you adding to that workload. I've done my best in the past few months to show you respect and have been met with nothing but resistance and difficulty.

Sirken will not be sending you a PM. You are being asked by a GM to attend a meeting with the senior server CSR staff and the guilds in question. If you have any reservations about that, you can ask Sirken about it yourself. Until then, you will follow instructions given to you by any member of the CSR staff, including the Guides. If you don't like that, you can take it up with Rogean. I know he loves it when players don't follow simple and reasonable instructions given to players by the CSR staff.

As BDA's guild leader I shouldn't need to contact anyone else in your guild about this. You can either send a rep or not - it makes no difference to me. But if you are unable to be present or unwilling to attend, BDA will not get a say in what happens to them, and will need to rely on Taken to negotiate for them.

If you'd like to be difficult, I can be difficult as well. The next time you refuse to follow instructions given to you by any member of the CSR staff, we'll suspend your account. It's unacceptable for you to treat the staff this way.

As always, if you have a problem with any of this, you are welcome to copy and paste it to Rogean. I've done my best to work with you and try to put whatever bad blood we had between us in the past to rest, but if you want to continue being an ass I'm happy to enforce every rule we have regarding treatment of CSR staff.

We're expecting an answer in the next day or two. That should be plenty of time to find a rep and a time.

Originally Posted by Chest Rockwell

I'm not in fucking town and I'm not being fucking difficult. Look at this from my perspective. I had a two hour conversation with Sirken, this was when he was interrogating people after the GT fiasco. I was told by Sirken that this matter was HANDLED. The fact that I cannot get confirmation from Sirken and am instead being told different by you is disconcerting at best and completely frustrating at worst.

I feel like Unbrella asked Dad to handle this issue and Sirken told him it wasn't a valid petition so Unbrella then Unbrella went behind dads back to ask Mom (you) to handle it and here we are.

I don't have a problem with you individually and with all the issues I've had with Sirken he at least treats me with a modicum of respect and doesn't say "show up or forfeit" so I want to confirm this through Sirken. I want him to tell me he's going back on his word that he gave to me.

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have no idea what went on between you and Sirken. He has told me this issue wasn't resolved. Regardless, if I ask for a BDA rep to be present for a raid dispute, I don't want to be argued with. I have enough to deal with as it is. You can give me a time that works for your rep, or put me in contact with the person you would like to represent you. If you have a separate issue to take up with Sirken, do that on your own time - my only interest is getting this set up and out of the way.

Originally Posted by Chest Rockwell

So I'd like Sirken to confirm that then. A GM gave me his word. I want it confirmed.

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Great. Then we will schedule this without BDA present.

Originally Posted by Chest Rockwell

So when can I speak with Sirken?

At this hearing (that I didn’t attend, Sadad did) we adamantly stressed that there was no collaboration between us and Taken. Our actions were of our own volition and we had no contact with Taken nor was any loot shared. Taken was dismissed. Derubael said that he and Sirken were only going to moderate the discussion, it ended up being Derubael/Sirken handing down a punishment because obviously BDA and TMO were never going to see eye to eye on situation. I don’t believe there were any fraps of screenshots of BDA and Taken trackers holding hands tracking together. I don’t think it would have mattered anyways because we were going to be guilty regardless. Even though this was an FFA encounter Derubael/Sirken decided to use the leverage of the rotation to implement our punishment which was to be suspended from our next Class R Nagafen in the rotation slot, which incidentally just came to pass. So this Nagafen incident happened in early June, we were suspended from our Nagafen rotation slot that just came up in mid October so maybe we’ll see Nagafen again around Christmas. A solid 4 month suspension.



The point of this wall of text is to illustrate the differences in the way that the staff handles class C versus class R guilds. Everyone knows Sirken and Derubael prefer the class C mindset, this was evident during the initial class meetings. It’s not like they despise class R, but it’s the same reason why they ask in their podcasts “I wonder why no one moves to class C, all these benefits, etc etc” and to date more class R guilds have been suspended than class C guilds. That’s obviously because there’s more class R guilds but it’s also because that’s just how the punishments have fallen. Even when ALL of class R agreed that Azure Guard shouldn’t have been suspended due to the raid sheet not functioning nothing was done about it. In class C IB and TMO just give mobs up back and forth on a weekly basis. Oh you trained us on this Nexona attempt, you get the next one with no competition, everything is cool now right? I don’t think it’s legislated fairly across the board and that needs to change.

TLDR – mew mew mew class R class C blah blah blah

[kotton05]

Your sense of entitlement is thru the roof, why can't you be like ok I'll figure it out and get a level head rep or you to go... Biting the hand that feeds... Sounds like derubael really gave you a chance.

[ManosMan]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have no information on this outstanding petition.

You are such an unbelievable piece of work that you would quote yourself saying this as a first response and think it makes you look good. Then immediately after, "I don't wanna send a rep" and "but I don't enjoy being summoned up on a whim". What an attitude you have...

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

. Derubael and I don’t really get along lol…

naw we get along just fine, whatchu talkin about?

I was not serious when I made this post:

Originally Posted by Derubael

nvm chest, sanity just went out the window, don't bother. not worth saving at this point.

But since you really, really want to see me totally lose it this morning, I'll simply point out three things:

1) Nothing in your post disproves anything I said. Unbrella's petition was literally ignored for a ridiculous amount of time, at which point it was finally addressed in a Skype call with Myself, Sirken, and Unbrella, where a mediation was requested. i don't know if Sirken was even fully aware of what he was telling you not to worry about during your conversation together - and yes, I can see why having this brought back up months later may have frustrated you - but the fact remains that you had both GM's agreeing to mediate for the TMO dispute against BDA

2) We have few viable options when "forced" to discipline Class R guilds when a dispute cannot be mediated by players, due to the way Class R rotates mobs. If we tak away, say, the next FFA Nagafen.... there's no real punishment there - we have no idea if you would have even gone after that target to begin with. So we are more or less forced to take away a rotation mob if it becomes necessary to address a situation that way. To be perfectly honest I am very thankful that you guys in Class-R rarely have conflicts like this that need to be escalated to that level, as they seem to be more difficult to find a fair and appropriate punishment for a violation.

To close this out, your last statement, while perfectly legitimate from your point of view, lacks the full picture required to truly make that judgement. Any bias that you may have thought was present is a combination of growing pains from the raid scene transition combined with biased perception of events - don't take that to be an insult, almost everyone carries some kind of bias, especially without having access to any of the Class C disputes - where mobs are forfeited all the time to compensate for infractions. I think that over time it will become clear we are really striving for fairness and cooperation as often as is possible in today's raid scene.

Now lets stop trying to make my head explode, ty!

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

naw we get along just fine, whatchu talkin about?

I was not serious when I made this post:



But since you really, really want to see me totally lose it this morning, I'll simply point out three things:

1) Nothing in your post disproves anything I said. Unbrella's petition was literally ignored for a ridiculous amount of time, at which point it was finally addressed in a Skype call with Myself, Sirken, and Unbrella, where a mediation was requested. i don't know if Sirken was even fully aware of what he was telling you not to worry about during your conversation together - and yes, I can see why having this brought back up months later may have frustrated you - but the fact remains that you had both GM's agreeing to mediate for the TMO dispute against BDA

2) We have few viable options when "forced" to discipline Class R guilds when a dispute cannot be mediated by players, due to the way Class R rotates mobs. If we tak away, say, the next FFA Nagafen.... there's no real punishment there - we have no idea if you would have even gone after that target to begin with. So we are more or less forced to take away a rotation mob if it becomes necessary to address a situation that way. To be perfectly honest I am very thankful that you guys in Class-R rarely have conflicts like this that need to be escalated to that level, as they seem to be more difficult to find a fair and appropriate punishment for a violation.

To close this out, your last statement, while perfectly legitimate from your point of view, lacks the full picture required to truly make that judgement. Any bias that you may have thought was present is a combination of growing pains from the raid scene transition combined with biased perception of events - don't take that to be an insult, almost everyone carries some kind of bias, especially without having access to any of the Class C disputes - where mobs are forfeited all the time to compensate for infractions. I think that over time it will become clear we are really striving for fairness and cooperation as often as is possible in today's raid scene.

Now lets stop trying to make my head explode, ty!

I don't disagree that I'm biased towards my own position, it's a predisposition and I'd say it's a relatively rational thought process, but re-read our PM conversation. It was tantamount to saying "do what I say or else" instead of going back and conferring with Sirken and admitting "yes chest, Sirken said this was a resolved issued but now due to new staff regulations we are re-opening the case and requesting you to send a rep.

That thought differs greatly from "I have no idea what this is about, I don't know/care what Sirken has told you, show up or it's a summary judgement against you and/or I'll just ban your accounts #DunkPic"

TMO and IB can just swap mobs indefinitely where the class R guilds are painted into a corner because we've created a rotation. We aren't going to break the rotation to avoid punishment because we aren't assholes but it's almost like that's what you want, to sow a bit of chaos.

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't disagree that I'm biased towards my own position, it's a predisposition and I'd say it's a relatively rational thought process, but re-read our PM conversation. It was tantamount to saying "do what I say or else" instead of going back and conferring with Sirken and admitting "yes chest, Sirken said this was a resolved issued but now due to new staff regulations we are re-opening the case and requesting you to send a rep.

That thought differs greatly from "I have no idea what this is about, I don't know/care what Sirken has told you, show up or it's a summary judgement against you and/or I'll just ban your accounts #DunkPic"

I was talking to Sirken while messaging you and that was never mentioned. He was more put off by the attitude that was coming my way than anything else. It's not uncommon for us to forget things we've talked about with players in the past, which may have been the case here.

TMO and IB can just swap mobs indefinitely where the class R guilds are painted into a corner because we've created a rotation. We aren't going to break the rotation to avoid punishment because we aren't assholes but it's almost like that's what you want, to sow a bit of chaos.

To be honest I don't think this is as much of a problem as you are making it out to be - Class R guilds engaging targets with CLass C guilds tend to be very cautious and very rarely will break a rule that requires GM intervention during an FFA encounter. The option for these two guilds to mediate their own dispute is always on the table as well. At this point, after expressing our frustration as nicely as possible all across the forums, I am shocked that anyone would truly believe we like chaos or drama. That kind of shit drives us crazy and takes us away from the real work we need to be doing for the server. If everyone worked at cooperating as hard as they did collecting pixels, we may be able to finally create a raid scene everyone truly enjoys.

and rainbows and unicorns and shit [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Visual]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We aren't going to break the rotation to avoid punishment because we aren't assholes but it's almost like that's what you want, to sow a bit of chaos.

You speak like you have some kind of bargaining leverage over the staff. They don't owe you anything. You should be getting nothing, zilch, nada. They have been overly generous.