Elder Scrolls Online

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And then what about the heavy offensive melee abilities? My talent trees from being a sorcerer only gives me 3 talent trees, none of which include the heavy hitting melee styles. My talents are limited to those of the sorcerer. So, if I want to go this path, I need to entirely ignore two of my three talent trees, only focus on the conjuration one, and deal with that. That's a really shitty system to constrain your choice that much. So no, that's not "my own class", that's a single specced sorcerer, rather than a warrior that dabbles in conjuration.

If you examine all of the talent trees more closely, the Dark Magic tree synergizes with melee about as well as the other defensive-supportish trees you see in the other classes. You're welcome to take as many or as few points from both the Dark Magic and Conj trees as you wish.

There is a great deal of flexibility inherent in the class system. Just because it doesn't let you do anything doesn't mean it isn't still really flexible.

Other than that, we're only disagreeing about one thing: I like classes that feel and play differently, and I like to feel as though my choices are meaningful, because I gave up certain things to get what I have. You want to be able to customize every aspect of your character, and I understand that.

I'm not saying your way is wrong, or that it is bad. I liked that model in the other TES games too. I'm just saying my preference leans toward the TESO system as it currently exists for an MMO environment. And I'm reluctant to say that I speak for everybody on that, and you should be too.

And yea, I wish the world was more open and less on-the-rails.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you examine all of the talent trees more closely, the Dark Magic tree synergizes with melee about as well as the other defensive-supportish trees you see in the other classes. You're welcome to take as many or as few points from both the Dark Magic and Conj trees as you wish.

Yes, but is Dark Magic 100% identical to what I could take under the fighter tree? If so, that sounds homogenized. It would be better if I had the option to take Dark Magic, or something under the fighter tree. Dark Magic may synergize well with melee, but it is the only way you can delve down that path, when fighter offers a number of others. So, if you want to be a heavy fighter/dabbler in conjuration, you're SOL. There are plenty of other styles just like this in which your shit out of luck, and jolly well fucked from the class system. This is common in many games, but other games don't come from the background of TES, which is one of vast RPG freedom in character development.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is a great deal of flexibility inherent in the class system. Just because it doesn't let you do anything doesn't mean it isn't still really flexible.

Classes are inherently anti-flexibility. They are rigid structures of progression, rigid structures of playstyle behavior. Just because you add some flexibility in a talent system (as EQ did with AAs) doesn't make it a flexible system. Absolute flexibility would lack any type of class, order, or structure, which is TES, but could not work in a MMO environment. That's why SWG is perfect for this, as it has a "class" system that offers rigid structure to skills, but allows flexibility in delving between the different abilities and skills of the different classes. It draws a middle ground, to be a mix between the rigid structures needed to balance a multiplayer game, and the flexible style common in TES that couldn't directly translate to a multiplayer environment.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Other than that, we're only disagreeing about one thing: I like classes that feel and play differently

I do not disagree with this. The classes do feel and play differently. My point is that playing a Sorcerer with heavy armor and a 2 handed weapon is not equivalent to playing a Warrior that dabbles in Conjuration, when Sorcerer and Warrior are base clases, and each has a number of abilities that are exclusive to the title "Warrior" or "Sorcerer". Each feels distinct, but just as you can't play a "Holy" specced Warrior in WoW, you need to go to a Paladin specced Warrior (either Retribution for offensive, or Protection for defensive), but when you do this, you get an entirely different playstyle that isn't a Warrior playstyle, which comes about from the other unique features that the rigid class structure pushes. If the rigid structure is more fluid, than your playstyle is entirely dictated by the synergies you build, rather than those inherent to the class structure itself.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

and I like to feel as though my choices are meaningful, because I gave up certain things to get what I have. You want to be able to customize every aspect of your character, and I understand that.

Correct. I do not believe it is a good decision for a MMO to force you to reroll a character to experience different style of content. I believe that consequences and costs are valuable things, and TES has had that, in the leveling speed difference based on what your character creation permitted. But rather than make a max progressed toon reroll their character entirely when they want to try a Warrior dabbling Wizard, instead of a Wizard dabbling Warrior, in which the individual character, the main, ceases to be developed, let the player continue to develop the rich history of their character.

This is what SWG did, and actively encouraged you to delve and jump between a variety of professions, rather than making a new character every time. It gives weight to your name, it makes reputation matter (which in turn builds community, much how EQ did by making your name matter), it gives flexibility to character roles so that one of my raiders doesn't have to reroll from Paladin to Warrior because Paladin abilities got nerfed this patch (shit that I had to do, and had my raiders do, as a raid leader in WoW all the time). Once you finish being a One Handed/Blocking/Heavy Armor orc, what next? In ESO, you need to reroll, because you're at the end of your class limited talent selection. In TES games, you'd deal with having a much harder time mastering those other abilities, and simply pick up and start using the new skill you're looking into and keep your sword and shield on backup. In SWG, you'd surrender one of your professions, and take another one that seems fun, allowing you to continue to develop your character, and experience the game endlessly on your main.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not saying your way is wrong, or that it is bad. I liked that model in the other TES games too. I'm just saying my preference leans toward the TESO system as it currently exists for an MMO environment. And I'm reluctant to say that I speak for everybody on that, and you should be too.

I'm not disagreeing and saying that you don't prefer the system you describe (as that would be silly), I am saying that the system you prefer is absolute shit. I say the same thing to people who prefer World of Warcraft. Sure, they may prefer WoW as a MMO, but it doesn't mean WoW is any less shitty of a game, any less garbage that survives as a game due to the community perpetuating itself, rather than through any real design decisions on the part of Blizzard.

I do not speak for everyone, I am suggesting that the sentiment I offer is going to be shared by a wide range of fans of TES, as well as fans of MMOs, who converge on this game at launch, play it for a bit, and once the honeymoon is over, are going to realize just how bad it is (presuming no major changes from the current beta information on the game). Just the same as what happened with TOR, GW2, TSW, etc. The game could be far more appealing if it imitated systems that flow better with it as a TES game, to keep TES fans involved, and it would appeal more to MMO fans if it offered any type of innovation on the standard, generic MMO model we see today being pumped out to extract as much money from fans as possible before getting abandoned.

[Grimfan]

I really hate the quote system but I think without it we cannot really have a discussion so I'll just try.

Originally Posted by Uteunayr

Yes, but is Dark Magic 100% identical to what I could take under the fighter tree? If so, that sounds homogenized. It would be better if I had the option to take Dark Magic, or something under the fighter tree. Dark Magic may synergize well with melee, but it is the only way you can delve down that path, when fighter offers a number of others. So, if you want to be a heavy fighter/dabbler in conjuration, you're SOL. There are plenty of other styles just like this in which your shit out of luck, and jolly well fucked from the class system. This is common in many games, but other games don't come from the background of TES, which is one of vast RPG freedom in character development.

The idea is that each character class has three different trees that are magic only. These trees are generally divided into three different properties, one being really unique to a class and the other two having a little overlap from what I have seen. For instance, Dragon Knight gets a tree that probably makes it better tanks than the other three, but you could probably build a different kind of tank type without too much difficulty. But yeah, they're not identical.

You ignored the fact that a lot of important and potentially character defining skills are actually found in game rather than given to you in the beginning. Because of the limited skill slots, and because the passives sometimes work for out of class skills, the ones that you start with might not even be potentially important. This means that there are builds out there that might be some from the Mages Guild, your weapon, and maybe one from the werewolf as well, and you might have a completely different playstyle with a Destruction Staff than say someone that is a Sorcerer, uses a couple skills from the dark magic line, a couple from lightning etc.

The builds for the first few weeks are going to be unique and deep and you might not even know what your group mates or pvp enemies are doing even from their gear/weapon. That is unlike WoW where if you are a Druid, and you meet a Paladin in battle you already know within about two minutes what each is capable of.

Originally Posted by Uteunayr

WoW quests were off the main path areas. The questing is remarkably similar to what it is in WoW. Explain what it is that makes ESO questing distinctly different from WoW. It still works in a themepark structure, it still works based on pumping out massive quantities of quests quickly, rather than making them epic. You say you disagree, but with what? That there are few quests in the main hubs?

So there are two different major quest lines in TESO, and if you wanted to you could just go straight down them and progress too fast, this is especially apparent depending on which faction you choose because I only noticed this for the first time when I went Aldmeri Dominion and was level 7 in a level 12 area because I didn't explore enough. Anyway one questline is your main story quest which is the "Epic" quest of the Elder Scrolls branch, it doesn't end whenever you leave the beginning area, the Prophet keeps talking to you for a long time, and eventually I'm sure you take the fight to Molag Bal as they've talked about it being the first multi-group instance.

The second long story-line quest is the intrigue within your capital city, both of the factions that I tried had really long quest lines that while they did give you rewards from quests in the middle of them, they were really part of the same line.

So there's that, you were talking about how quests were just short do this and do that, but I think that those quests have really long and enduring storylines and are pretty memorable.

As far as normal questing being different from what is in World of Warcraft, I quit WoW when Cataclysm came out, so they might have changed their design philosophy, but the way that I remember it in WoW is that you literally went to a quest hub and gathered 5-6 quests and went out and started doing them. Sometimes, and only in the areas that the quests sent you, you might find another quest or an item that gave you a quest. If you were really lucky and they felt like doing something interesting you might find something silly you could do for an achievement.

This is the same design that Aion took, the same that Rift took, the same that Tera took, the same that TSW took for the most part, the same that GW2 took with the exception of their public quests, the same that... do you see what I'm saying? The idea is that they have areas already planned for you to go to and your content is along those areas.

Since you've only played the beginning area of TESO I will try to keep my knowledge limited to that to put some perspective in it for you. If you decide in the Skyrim area not to save all the people that are moving on to the next area with you, you can do that. You can actually advance at a very quick pace out of the tutorial/noob island. This is because the main story quest does not take you to the spider caves, it does not take you to many of the off path areas in the lands of Skyrim. You can advance to the next area (presumably to never come back) without ever doing 90% of the content on the noob island.

The further you move on, the more apparent it gets that you need to start exploring and instead of only sticking to the main path where the game sends you, you need to start going off the paths and into the mountains to explore. If you did this in WoW or Rift, you MIGHT get an achievement for getting to some high place and jumping off, if you do this in TESO you get rewarded with experience, gear, sometimes skill points, etc.

Anyway I already explained why I feel their system is different. We can agree to disagree if you'd like though, you're really combative and I don't really feel like making this a fight or whatever.

If you don't play the game I don't really care, but comparing it to WoW is really just wrong, it's about as far as it gets from the WoW quest system and it is about as close as you can get to making a Elder Scroll MMO without making it a gigantic sandbox like a lot of people would enjoy. I think that a sandbox would be good too, and yes it is a theme park MMO and I am sure I'll get bored with that eventually, but at least it has some promising systems in place to hopefully keep my interest for longer than the other games you listed up there.

[innocent51]

Forbe's article is quite bad.
However TESO isnt a good game. Its hardly more than a sub-GW2 surfing on Elder's Scroll licence without adding anything new. Its (probably after FF14) the MMO with the least new ideas.

[Grubbz]

I don't even understand why people are trying to convince others one way or another about the game.

Some of us will be buying it, others wont, enough said.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The idea is that each character class has three different trees that are magic only. These trees are generally divided into three different properties, one being really unique to a class and the other two having a little overlap from what I have seen. For instance, Dragon Knight gets a tree that probably makes it better tanks than the other three, but you could probably build a different kind of tank type without too much difficulty. But yeah, they're not identical.

And in that way, each class has a forced, distinct playstyle, rather than one that grows organically through your choices in a progression system, as is the case in every TES game. That's a bad TES system.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You ignored the fact that a lot of important and potentially character defining skills are actually found in game rather than given to you in the beginning. Because of the limited skill slots, and because the passives sometimes work for out of class skills, the ones that you start with might not even be potentially important. This means that there are builds out there that might be some from the Mages Guild, your weapon, and maybe one from the werewolf as well, and you might have a completely different playstyle with a Destruction Staff than say someone that is a Sorcerer, uses a couple skills from the dark magic line, a couple from lightning etc.

I do not ignore this, but it is irrelevant to the point. The point remains that there are talent trees that are exclusive to specific classes, which will force general playstyles upon a character, rather than making it an organic experience as is traditional in TES, and what TES fans are used to. You don't get that in ESO, and you will have to reroll your character entirely if you ever want to shift that core play style.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The builds for the first few weeks are going to be unique and deep and you might not even know what your group mates or pvp enemies are doing even from their gear/weapon. That is unlike WoW where if you are a Druid, and you meet a Paladin in battle you already know within about two minutes what each is capable of.

Until the min-max builds come out, which always happens anytime you have extremely limited options. What is the min-max in WoW in which you have classes with three unique builds? It will not be made different if you have extra talent trees that are shared (armor/weapons/quest ones, etc), because the class system will encourage a very specific style of leveling up, with specific armor/weapon/quest talents taken to maximize the output of the core class abilities. But that didn't happen in Skyrim. Sure, everyone can agree Blacksmithing and Enchanting are OP as fuck... But One Handed versus Archery? Destruction versus Sneak? Which is better? Which is the minmax? Or for a MMO comparison, Commando/BH vs Commando/Teras Kasi (SWG), or how about Elemental/Pistols vs Elemental/Shotguns (TSW)? Neither ended up the minmax in the end, because no one was restricted, and no one character had core, fundamental uniqueness that could not be changed after creation.

Sure, in the first few weeks of WoW, people had "unique and deep" builds, but they quickly melted away into a minmax. You'll learn what others have, and you'll know within two minutes going against a sorcerer what they are capable of, as a minmax will always come out when you have rigid structures like class.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So there are two different major quest lines in TESO, and if you wanted to you could just go straight down them and progress too fast, this is especially apparent depending on which faction you choose because I only noticed this for the first time when I went Aldmeri Dominion and was level 7 in a level 12 area because I didn't explore enough. Anyway one questline is your main story quest which is the "Epic" quest of the Elder Scrolls branch, it doesn't end whenever you leave the beginning area, the Prophet keeps talking to you for a long time, and eventually I'm sure you take the fight to Molag Bal as they've talked about it being the first multi-group instance.

The second long story-line quest is the intrigue within your capital city, both of the factions that I tried had really long quest lines that while they did give you rewards from quests in the middle of them, they were really part of the same line.

So there's that, you were talking about how quests were just short do this and do that, but I think that those quests have really long and enduring storylines and are pretty memorable.

You mean that 30 quests have a really long and enduring storyline. Quests in ESO are the effective equivalent to a task in pretty much any game, or stages on a quest in Skyrim, but they are treated as distinct quests. Sure, the game has a "main questline" and "secondary questline", but this isn't something unique from World of Warcraft. In Cataclysm (the start of a new story arc), you get to choose your starting position (Hyjal vs Vash'jir), and the story that progresses from that leads directly into going to Deepholm, which builds upon the story of Hyjal or Vash'jir, depending on which you did. Upon finishing the Deepholm "quest line" of around 120 quests, the events that take place there necessarily lead you to Uldum, which in turn leads you to Twilight Highlands, culminating in the rise of the Bastion of Twilight, one of the main raids.

So, I see no difference between what you describe, and what WoW does. There is a vast difference between that, and quests the way EverQuest handles it, and in which TES handles it, in which you are not given thousands of micro-quests along the way, but are given general goals, and left to go about it your own way. You're not lead by the hand through areas, which is the feeling ESO gives through their questlines.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As far as normal questing being different from what is in World of Warcraft, I quit WoW when Cataclysm came out, so they might have changed their design philosophy, but the way that I remember it in WoW is that you literally went to a quest hub and gathered 5-6 quests and went out and started doing them. Sometimes, and only in the areas that the quests sent you, you might find another quest or an item that gave you a quest. If you were really lucky and they felt like doing something interesting you might find something silly you could do for an achievement.

The quest structure I describe above for Cataclysm was still true in Lich King, in which you selected your entry point (Howling Fjord or Borean Tundra). You gather a bunch of quests in the main hub there, your base, which guides you through a story which brings you around that area, which guides you to Dragonblight, which leads you to meeting the dragons, uncovering the truth of the infinite dragonflight, and seeing the betrayal of the undead when you try to break into Icecrown. With that defeat, you are given options to help others around the area, in the other zones of Northrend, which lead you into Icecrown. Once broken into Icecrown, you begin the assault, and the questline ends with the beginning of the raids.

But by and large, people became very disinterested because the quests are shit out upon you. It's the same thing ESO does, and with their current system, the same exact outcome is going to happen, in which people want to click quickly through any quest chat and rush to quest objectives to level up a new character, because their first character (a sorcerer) couldn't be what they wanted, so they had to reroll a fighter.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is the same design that Aion took, the same that Rift took, the same that Tera took, the same that TSW took for the most part, the same that GW2 took with the exception of their public quests, the same that... do you see what I'm saying? The idea is that they have areas already planned for you to go to and your content is along those areas.

Yes, and these are all WoW clones as far as game design is concerned. TSW innovated only insofar as their progression system is concerned, but it remained an entirely run of the mill MMO experience founded in the WoW model. And it was boring as shit.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Since you've only played the beginning area of TESO I will try to keep my knowledge limited to that to put some perspective in it for you. If you decide in the Skyrim area not to save all the people that are moving on to the next area with you, you can do that. You can actually advance at a very quick pace out of the tutorial/noob island. This is because the main story quest does not take you to the spider caves, it does not take you to many of the off path areas in the lands of Skyrim. You can advance to the next area (presumably to never come back) without ever doing 90% of the content on the noob island.

That's fine, but this isn't much different, again. You can skip a healthy amount of content in WoW, which is what most people end up doing when faced with doing the same quest line over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, any time they want a different play style experience. The gameplay remains rigid, it remains unchanging. Heck, at least in EverQuest, doing a camp two different times will come out with two very different experiences on the grounds that there is randomization in your play style. Sure, you may have wrecked Charasis basement last time you were there, but this time you go, your charms break a toon, roots are getting broken, etc. The dynamic experience is built based on the random chances of play style in EverQuest. The dynamic experience in TES has always been the adventure of doing each part of the quest, and interacting with unscripted things (random giant attacks, random dragon assaults, random patrols, random stuff that doesn't happen twice in a row the same way). The dynamic experience in EQN (presuming we take what they say as absolutely true) is that the mobs do not settle in the same place twice, they act in different ways based on the dynamically changing environment based on the ways players interact with it. This is what WoW, TSW, WoW, ESO, GW2, and pretty much every MMO since WoW that has been too cowardly to try and innovate has lost. Two characters along the same path will have a significantly similar experience, as quests grant you a scripted, singular experience that does not vary along the same lines. When these quests are short, and quickly delivered as part of grander storylines, rather than being steps upon a greater quest, each step is delivered as a scripted follow up to the last to hold your hand and guide you from area to area. It is pathetic and patronizing. There's a reason TSW's only major feature many people took away from it was the Investigation quests, which make you go above and beyond this handholding in today's games.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The further you move on, the more apparent it gets that you need to start exploring and instead of only sticking to the main path where the game sends you, you need to start going off the paths and into the mountains to explore. If you did this in WoW or Rift, you MIGHT get an achievement for getting to some high place and jumping off, if you do this in TESO you get rewarded with experience, gear, sometimes skill points, etc.

Exploration rewards achievements, experience, loot, and side-quest that you would not otherwise find in WoW. This isn't different than a themepark in which you're brought area to area to explore that area, consume all the content, and then move on never to return.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anyway I already explained why I feel their system is different. We can agree to disagree if you'd like though, you're really combative and I don't really feel like making this a fight or whatever.

Do not mistake being very outspoken and opinionated for combative. I am not emotionally invested in this conversation in the least.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you don't play the game I don't really care, but comparing it to WoW is really just wrong, it's about as far as it gets from the WoW quest system and it is about as close as you can get to making a Elder Scroll MMO without making it a gigantic sandbox like a lot of people would enjoy. I think that a sandbox would be good too, and yes it is a theme park MMO and I am sure I'll get bored with that eventually, but at least it has some promising systems in place to hopefully keep my interest for longer than the other games you listed up there.

To say it is "as far as it gets from WoW quest system" makes me question how you're on a classic EQ forum, given that EQ is *significantly* further away from WoW than ESO is. Classic EQ is as far away from WoW's quest system as you get today. Lets see...

EQ is furthest away. EQ Live doesn't grind quests, but it does grind kill tasks to put a cherry on the top of the creature grind that is traditional to EQ camping, so I'd say Live is probably the next furthest away, tied with DAoC and SWG, both of which offered the "task grind" style of creature grinding. After that, I'd put ESO, TSW, TOR, and other quest grinding main-storyline games, and then put WoW, as there isn't one unified story, but broken up between expansion packs.

I will not be playing the game, and anyone who reads what I have written, and can identify with my position in regards to other games, they will heed my warning, and avoid the game as well. Others who identify better with your position, and believe that there is a difference between the quest-grind, themepark style in WoW and other games listed, and therefore ESO is also distinct, they will heed your advice. You encourage those like you to get into the game, and I discourage those like me from buying the game so that we can get beyond having the same damn MMO published year after year to continue the stagnation in innovation that has hit MMOs. Stagnation from WoW really is the only explanation as to how you have EQ, and then DAoC, and then SWG, and City of Heroes, and then hit WoW, and for the next decade, have nothing but rehashed ideas. I am amazed when people talk about how great and innovative WoW is with the new "Garrisons", meanwhile I just sit here and say that SWG did this a decade ago, EQ and DAoC both instituted guild halls. And that pretty much all the new "innovations" we see are rehashes of the same exact stuff, rather than steps forward. That's why my only hope is for the dynamic creature system and non-quest grind structure EQN is proposing.

[Grimfan]

I'm not going to stomp on any toes, but if you could re-read your post, and then make it a little easier to read by only referencing each quote once I'd appreciate it. For someone in academia it was very hard for me to slog through a post where each point was hit twice with different information. In fact, I only read it once because even though you changed your points a bit in the second part, but I'll touch on the last paragraph you wrote because I can't really get my head around the last.

I will not be playing the game, and anyone who reads what I have written, and can identify with my position in regards to other games, they will heed my warning, and avoid the game as well. Others who identify better with your position, and believe that there is a difference between the quest-grind, themepark style in WoW and other games listed, and therefore ESO is also distinct, they will heed your advice. You encourage those like you to get into the game, and I discourage those like me from buying the game so that we can get beyond having the same damn MMO published year after year to continue the stagnation in innovation that has hit MMOs. Stagnation from WoW really is the only explanation as to how you have EQ, and then DAoC, and then SWG, and City of Heroes, and then hit WoW, and for the next decade, have nothing but rehashed ideas. I am amazed when people talk about how great and innovative WoW is with the new "Garrisons", meanwhile I just sit here and say that SWG did this a decade ago, EQ and DAoC both instituted guild halls. And that pretty much all the new "innovations" we see are rehashes of the same exact stuff, rather than steps forward. That's why my only hope is for the dynamic creature system and non-quest grind structure EQN is proposing.

I think that ESO is actually a step backwards when it comes to quest design and exploration and I like it. It's not as open world as EverQuest, and I think that is partially because they probably couldn't justify that as good game design anymore. I love classic EverQuest, and part of it is the immersion and the fact that I rely on other people to do content. There's a bit of that in ESO, but it doesn't come close to EverQuest, and I understand your pain in this part. It also does not come close to an Elder Scrolls game, but because games like Skyrim are basically the exact definition of a theme park for one person, I don't think they could really do that.

I'll concede and say that the game is a lot like other MMO's in the way that it has some of the conveniences that others do. I will disagree however that the class system is a poor one, and that the 3 core abilities you get from your class will make that much of a difference when all is said and done when you build your character. Your playstyle will affect your class the most, and I don't feel that your beginning decision will make much of a difference.

I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy your experience with it, and I think that what I am saying is that people should give it more than two hours to see how deep it goes. I've never actually seen a game where there are crafting stations that you can discover by exploring non quest areas where you can craft specific set gear that has different abilities. I've honestly just never seen that. That doesn't mean it does not exist, but I've never seen it.

I'm excited to explore and get abilities out in the world rather than just handed to me all at once via the Elder Scrolls model where you are instantly able to do whatever you want if you have an inclination, yet at the same time I'm happy that no matter what class I can be a bow wielding healer/support class if I want, even if they do things a little differently.

Basically, what I am saying is I don't think you gave it enough of a chance, and I think there's a great game in there, it just takes some time to get past the starting areas. You're taking a first impression and blasting away at the game when you really have no idea what you're talking about and so many others are doing the same thing, and that is not something an academic would do in my opinion.

That is why I'm bothering to argue at all. Every comment here that has called the game shit has not taken enough time to play it. I also felt it was shit my first beta test, and then the next beta my girlfriend also got into it and it was suddenly a much better game playing with her. I had someone to adventure around with, and I saw more. We made an effort to get further into the game. The game does make a first bad impression though.

[odiecat99]

holy fuck
Get a room you two ! ♥

[Blink]

FUCK U FIGHT ME!!!

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not going to stomp on any toes, but if you could re-read your post, and then make it a little easier to read by only referencing each quote once I'd appreciate it. For someone in academia it was very hard for me to slog through a post where each point was hit twice with different information. In fact, I only read it once because even though you changed your points a bit in the second part, but I'll touch on the last paragraph you wrote because I can't really get my head around the last.

It was a copy paste error since I was on my university computer, and I fucked up with it. I adjusted it, and cut out everything that was duplicated, I believe. The first many responses were duplicated once, and then the actual conclusion was duplicated. This occurred because when splitting up your quote, I had to copy your Quote text, but toward the end, I had copy pasted the entire page to save it just in case it got eaten when I went to submit. When I decided to add one final note, it slipped my mind that I had saved it (after revision), and I pasted what I thought was the quote tag.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think that ESO is actually a step backwards when it comes to quest design and exploration and I like it. It's not as open world as EverQuest, and I think that is partially because they probably couldn't justify that as good game design anymore. I love classic EverQuest, and part of it is the immersion and the fact that I rely on other people to do content. There's a bit of that in ESO, but it doesn't come close to EverQuest, and I understand your pain in this part. It also does not come close to an Elder Scrolls game, but because games like Skyrim are basically the exact definition of a theme park for one person, I don't think they could really do that.

But Skyrim isn't anywhere close to a themepark. A themepark game is one that holds your hand and guides you from each tourist attraction, lets you see it, and then you move on to the next location, consume the content there, and move on to the next, and so on. Skyrim is closer to a sandbox, but it isn't as free as a "sandbox" technically would be, so it is best as an open world RPG, in which you are constantly going back to the same places over and over, you're experiencing the world in many different ways. Just like in early MMO design, you go to the Oasis of Marr multiple times while leveling up, and you don't simply exhaust the location by "finishing" it.

But yes, we can both agree it is a step backwards in terms of quest design, but I think WoW was also a step backwards in terms of quest design. We've been walking backward since EverQuest gave us meaningful quests that have a real feeling of accomplishment.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll concede and say that the game is a lot like other MMO's in the way that it has some of the conveniences that others do. I will disagree however that the class system is a poor one, and that the 3 core abilities you get from your class will make that much of a difference when all is said and done when you build your character. Your playstyle will affect your class the most, and I don't feel that your beginning decision will make much of a difference.

Your play style is shaped by the gaming environment and style in which you're played. No matter what you do, the play style of a Warrior Tank will never be the same as the play style of a Paladin Tank in WoW. Even with allowing different armor types, weapon types (and lets just forget that dual wielding is just spam left click, rather than left/right click, another terrible backward step for TES), a necessary play style will emerge.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy your experience with it, and I think that what I am saying is that people should give it more than two hours to see how deep it goes. I've never actually seen a game where there are crafting stations that you can discover by exploring non quest areas where you can craft specific set gear that has different abilities. I've honestly just never seen that. That doesn't mean it does not exist, but I've never seen it.

I played it for far more than two hours. I played an entire beta weekend, completing the first island entirely on each different class. I referenced to a quest I did in the first two hours, but I played far more than that. Since then, I've done a couple more beta weekends, but continued to do the fighter and sorcerer classes in those successive weekends. However, I have stopped.

WoW has a few instances of crafting stations that are in isolated areas, especially in Lich King for Death Knights and their Runeforging. SWG had some rather rare stations that you had to find to build stuff. I forget about Mandalorian Armor, but I think you had to use a crafting station down in Death Watch Bunker, which is in no way a main questing area/main exploration area.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm excited to explore and get abilities out in the world rather than just handed to me all at once via the Elder Scrolls model where you are instantly able to do whatever you want if you have an inclination, yet at the same time I'm happy that no matter what class I can be a bow wielding healer/support class if I want, even if they do things a little differently.

Yes, but your playstyle as a bow wielding healer/support class will be distinctly different for your class, and so if you want to change up how it goes, you must reroll your toon entirely, which subverts much of the community building that occurs when your name builds a reputation, which is a significant part of why good community develops. People didn't easily reroll alts in EverQuest from max level because of how damn long it took, and so name reputation mattered. SWG did it by giving you only one toon, and in both games, great community exists. Games since? Not that much.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Basically, what I am saying is I don't think you gave it enough of a chance, and I think there's a great game in there, it just takes some time to get past the starting areas. You're taking a first impression and blasting away at the game when you really have no idea what you're talking about and so many others are doing the same thing, and that is not something an academic would do in my opinion.

I think you took when I referred to a quest I did about two hours in, that I had played for only two hours. I am actually having difficulty finding where I wrote that part, as I am trying to make sure I worded it correctly. But I did not play for only two hours. I played significantly more, and hate the fact that I did, because nothing changed. At first, I thought, "Okay, starting area. I'll give it some time.", but it never improved. Let me know where I said it, and I'll make sure to adjust it. I couldn't find anything related to "Hour", "two", or "2" in my posts so far, all I did find was from my first response to Lune, which makes clear I have played a good bit.

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So, you have the spellcaster catch all, and the fighter catch all, the two that I played extensively over a number of different beta weekends.

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is why I'm bothering to argue at all. Every comment here that has called the game shit has not taken enough time to play it. I also felt it was shit my first beta test, and then the next beta my girlfriend also got into it and it was suddenly a much better game playing with her. I had someone to adventure around with, and I saw more. We made an effort to get further into the game. The game does make a first bad impression though.

I'd dare to say that any MMO played with a close friend is made infinitely better, as it is the social relationship that is providing the quality of the experience, rather than the game itself. My buddy was working the entire weekend, so I was unable to play with him through it, so I judged the game solely by what it offered in terms of design as I have come to look and be critical of over 15 years of playing MMOs, rather than based on what I get out of social connections, which is something any MMO will provide.