Enchanters didn't charm until PoP dire charm AA

[RecondoJoe]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's how Druids were actually playing in classic, from my own home server of Brisltlebane ... "The Fastest EXP in EverQuest!" [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]:

A lot of people on P99 are completely oblivious to the fact that they are only leveling fast because of broken ZEMs. In their minds players were just really bad back in the day, and the reason they're able to level so fast is because they know how to play the game now. If they released a new P99 server with no ZEMs, I don't think a lot of people would even hit level 50, nor would you see a large number of players grouping in dungeons when they could get faster exp solo'ing, with better loot and without the headache.

Like as someone who just started playing P99 shortly after green was released... I immediately knew the experience was wrong. I wasn't just some dumb kid who couldn't figure out how to play the game. I was working my fucking ass off, dude. I remember having to level in Lake of Ill Omen, OverThere, Dreadlands etc. because there was you couldn't just go to CT and go from 30-45 in a day. It felt like doing 30-40 in OT took months, literally. Months of sitting on a hill pulling cactuses, and hoping to God you didn't aggro that dark elf guard that runs at SoW speed.

So when I started playing on P99 and was level 50 in two weeks.. I was like man, something is really wrong here....

[Vivitron]

Yes, I'm sure that the claim that camping a single static span is the fastest xp is something that we should take as literal truth and not some kids clickbait title. Keen interpretation of that evidence, loramin.

[Vivitron]

I'll also add that charming doesn't seem to be the dominant p99 green druid strategy, based on casual observation of class population of ct gators and perma pits, and the attitude towards charm of druids I've grouped with.

[loramin]

My point was that not a single person, post-classic, recommended charming ... out of the twenty Druids who took the time to create guides. If charming was as viable as it is here, logic would dictate that at least 5% of Druids might use and recommend it ... but no one did. Almost as if charming is easier here than it was on live ...

The post from Bristlebane was largely for entertainment purposes (I was hoping the winking emoji, overwrought claim in the subject, complete lack of respect for English grammar and spelling in the post itself, etc. would have hinted as much) ... although it does still serve as one more data point that classic Druids weren't charming.

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My point was that not a single person, post-classic, recommended charming ... out of the twenty Druids who took the time to create guides. If charming was as viable as it is here, logic would dictate that at least 5% of Druids might use and recommend it ... but no one did. Almost as if charming is easier here than it was on live ...

The post from Bristlebane was largely for entertainment purposes (I was hoping the winking emoji, overwrought claim in the subject, complete lack of respect for English grammar and spelling in the post itself, etc. would have hinted as much) ... although it does still serve as one more data point that classic Druids weren't charming.

I will try to keep a better humor in our conversations going forward[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I clicked through the more guides link at the bottom of the page and reached a charming one: https://web.archive.org/web/20030508...EW.ASP?ID=3746

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will try to keep a better humor in our conversations going forward[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I clicked through the more guides link at the bottom of the page and reached a charming one: https://web.archive.org/web/20030508...EW.ASP?ID=3746

Right, and as I've said: people did charm in classic. That guide proves what we already knew: that charming was possible on live, just as it is here.

What I'm saying is that there were 20 guides on the page I linked, and as you found a whole bunch more on the rest of the site ... but you found one on charming. If live players had all the same tools back then we have now (and we agree: they did) ... and if it was as easy/safe/effective as it is here ... why wasn't it the topic of 50+% of the guides?

The reply here seems to be "on live, only one in a thousand ever tried using their class spells to get XP, and he had a terrible Internet connection" ... and there's absolutely some truth to that! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But it doesn't fully explain the gigantic delta between us and live: many did have stable connections, there were tons of guides, forum discussions, etc. about the best way to level ... but while charm is obviously better here, it was barely mentioned there. Why?

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Right, and as I've said: people did charm in classic. That guide proves what we already knew: that charming was possible on live, just as it is here.

What I'm saying is that there were 20 guides on the page I linked, and as you found a whole bunch more on the rest of the site ... but you found one on charming. If live players had all the same tools back then we have now (and we agree: they did) ... and if it was as easy/safe/effective as it is here ... why wasn't it the topic of 50+% of the guides?

The reply here seems to be "on live, only one in a thousand ever tried using their class spells to get XP, and he had a terrible Internet connection" ... and there's absolutely some truth to that! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But it doesn't fully explain the gigantic delta between us and live: many did have stable connections, there were tons of guides, forum discussions, etc. about the best way to level ... but while charm is obviously better here, it was barely mentioned there. Why?

I told you, it took like 10 years for charm to get the way it was here, 6 years ago only 20% of the server did it, now 100%

the internet, guides, youtube, thats how.

no doubt in my mind that in the fast pace 3 years of learning this game that that level of game was never reached by anymore than a select few that were too anti social to be able to explain it or write an article

absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence

[ghost wolves]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Right, and as I've said: people did charm in classic. That guide proves what we already knew: that charming was possible on live, just as it is here.

What I'm saying is that there were 20 guides on the page I linked, and as you found a whole bunch more on the rest of the site ... but you found one on charming. If live players had all the same tools back then we have now (and we agree: they did) ... and if it was as easy/safe/effective as it is here ... why wasn't it the topic of 50+% of the guides?

The reply here seems to be "on live, only one in a thousand ever tried using their class spells to get XP, and he had a terrible Internet connection" ... and there's absolutely some truth to that! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But it doesn't fully explain the gigantic delta between us and live: many did have stable connections, there were tons of guides, forum discussions, etc. about the best way to level ... but while charm is obviously better here, it was barely mentioned there. Why?

Maybe because Enc's didn't need to solo. They were always wanted in groups because of haste, clarity and mez. Grouping was safer and more interesting and the way the game was meant to be played. People didn't play EQ to solo. If Enc's didn't have those grouping tools, I'm sure charm soloing would have been a big deal, but they have a great group toolkit so they can level either way.

I didn't play an Enc on classic live, but my brother did. He def would charm in groups because it was fun seeing monsters beat on monsters. He never got the idea to charm solo because he'd be getting tells to join groups wherever he went. It just wasn't really needed.

I saw people with charmed sand giants running through Oasis back on live. More of a vanity thing than anything, but people did use the spell. They just didn't put all the pieces together (GCD clickies, Goblin Ring instant break, etc.) to create a crazy charm solo system, but those tools were there and, like a lot of things in P99, have been defined and streamlined thanks to the wiki for everyone to learn.

And really, what does it matter? It's still hard to charm solo. You need a pretty solid understanding of EQ combat (aggro, GCD, targeting, pet control, etc.). Someone totally new to the game could not, in any way, easily charm solo. It takes practice like bard swarm kiting. The risk is built in and every Enchanter WILL have deaths guaranteed.

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If charming was as viable as it is here, logic would dictate that at least 5% of Druids might use and recommend it ... but no one did.

You make a big deal about no charm guides being in the list, then double down on your position when I point out a charm guide in the list.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

... but while charm is obviously better here, it was barely mentioned there. Why?

...Same reason you saw folks defending things (using these same arguments) ranging from whirl till you hurl back when P99 first opened to broken monk sneak splitting to melee combat bind.

I believe random-type spells in general are too "user friendly" on P99. It's probably an EQ-EMU tuning issue. Not just charm, but lulls, roots, invisibility, pretty much all the random-type spells seem rather too good here. All we have is circumstantial evidence though. The sort of hard proof management prefers likely does not exist due to the original values for those types of things being host-side and hence inaccessible to the community. Anything that was kept in the clientside spelldata files (mana costs, etc) we can easily get right, but stuff that was host-side requires some guesswork.

At any rate I don't care enough to spend much time trying to search for the elusive "smoking gun." Enchanters don't bother me all that much. Mostly they're doing stuff that would've been occupied in the original game anyway due to higher server populations. I hate bards way more.

Danth