The left has gone full retard

[Raev]

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. ignores the massive roll back of welfare in the 80s, and trys to blame the middle class decline following the 80s on stuff that happened in the 40s-50s (when the middle class came rose and became strong).

If we amend this to 'nonmonotonic' will you be satisfied? Also, I'm curious why you think a decline in welfare (the bottom 15%) would be destructive to the middle class.

Originally Posted by JurisDictum

2. Obamacare did increase coverage. Deal with it. BTW, the conservative governors purposefully tried to sabotage the program throughout most of conservative America. This is why you notice much more issues with Obamacare in conservative states than liberal ones. All that being said, I want socialized medicine for all. There will still be private medicine for the rich if they want cushy waiting rooms and more patient drs.

So I had to look this up. this was the best data I could find. It looks like Obamacare (implemented 2010) did nothing but when the government started to tax people for not having insurance, they bought it. So I'm going to say you're right and my information was a bit out of date, but I'm not really sure that's an achievement.

Originally Posted by JurisDictum

3. I want us to change directions when it comes to social programs. I don't want programs that help people subsist in poverty. I want programs that invest in the workforce, programs that train people in skills than place them in jobs. I want programs that allow preferential loans to particularly productive things -- like college and home ownership. In short, I want to take the programs that work in Europe, and modify them as necessary to work for America.

I'll take this as you agreeing with #2, that our current programs suck.

But you aren't different from LBJ. He specifically wanted programs that gave people a boost out of poverty, not ones that kept them there forever. In fact, I don't think welfare has ever been intended to do that, yet that is what we have.

Again, given the past history of social programs simply not accomplishing their goals, how do you expect to succeed this time? And remember, the obstinate Republican governors aren't going way.

Originally Posted by Lune

The largest redistribution that has occurred since the 1950's (The time of the greatest economic equality in US history) has been wealth into the hands of corporations and the financial elite, through deregulation, wage depression, declining union membership, political corruption, globalization, and cultural changes.

100% agree, but it doesn't mean that the social programs haven't increased. This is why I don't like socialism: it is always corrupted.

Originally Posted by Lune

I want universal healthcare. I want the government to start trustbusting again and breaking up the monopolies and cartels that have developed in nearly every American industry. I want the traditions and practices of unions to make a comeback so labor isn't getting raped so fucking hard. Not public sector unions. I want business interests and Democrats to stop blocking immigration reform worldwide, depressing wages and driving up safety net costs across Europe and the US. I want multinational corporations to pay the taxes they owe (They use all the benefits of globalization including cheap labor, access to domestic infrastructure, education, and technological sophistication, but still use national borders to hide their money from being taxed).

I mean, you have my full support for trustbusting (I'd love to see corporate progressive income tax), immigration reform, and elimination of public sector unions. I don't think your problem there is the libertarians but the politicians and their corporate masters who profit immensely from the current state of affairs.

IIRC our corporate tax rate was the highest in the world but I'm not really knowledgeable about that area.

Originally Posted by Pokesan

I believe in the idiotic strawman you've presented Raev

You are remarkably bad at posting on the internet.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Serious question for you leftists (except Alarti, who is incapable of critical thought). Do you feel this is a fair description of your opinion:

1. We have seen a massive increase in social redistribution programs in the United States during the past 50 years
2. These programs primarily benefit the bureaucracy, e.g. welfare doesn't reduce poverty, Obamacare doesn't increase healthcare coverage, etc
3. You want more social redistribution programs or at least to maintain the ones we have

The largest redistribution that has occurred since the 1950's (The time of the greatest economic equality in US history) has been wealth into the hands of corporations and the financial elite, through deregulation, wage depression, declining union membership, political corruption, globalization, and cultural changes.

I want universal healthcare. I want the government to start trustbusting again and breaking up the monopolies and cartels that have developed in nearly every American industry. I want the traditions and practices of unions to make a comeback so labor isn't getting raped so fucking hard. Not public sector unions. I want business interests and Democrats to stop blocking immigration reform worldwide, depressing wages and driving up safety net costs across Europe and the US. I want multinational corporations to pay the taxes they owe (They use all the benefits of globalization including cheap labor, access to domestic infrastructure, education, and technological sophistication, but still use national borders to hide their money from being taxed).

However, none of the above can happen if the Ayn Rand/Libertarian selfishness and contempt for collective responsibility that spread like a plague since Reagan is wiped out, and none of it can happen until political campaigns are free of bribery. Luckily the voting trends of young people seem to indicate that things are headed in that direction.

I'm not going to argue about your perception of the growth/efficacy of social programs/liberalism over the last 50 years because you continually fail to address my points.

[Nihilist_santa]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The largest redistribution that has occurred since the 1950's (The time of the greatest economic equality in US history) has been wealth into the hands of corporations and the financial elite, through deregulation, wage depression, declining union membership, political corruption, globalization, and cultural changes.

I want universal healthcare. I want the government to start trustbusting again and breaking up the monopolies and cartels that have developed in nearly every American industry. I want the traditions and practices of unions to make a comeback so labor isn't getting raped so fucking hard. Not public sector unions. I want business interests and Democrats to stop blocking immigration reform worldwide, depressing wages and driving up safety net costs across Europe and the US. I want multinational corporations to pay the taxes they owe (They use all the benefits of globalization including cheap labor, access to domestic infrastructure, education, and technological sophistication, but still use national borders to hide their money from being taxed).

However, none of the above can happen if the Ayn Rand/Libertarian selfishness and contempt for collective responsibility that spread like a plague since Reagan is wiped out, and none of it can happen until political campaigns are free of bribery. Luckily the voting trends of young people seem to indicate that things are headed in that direction.

I'm not going to argue about your perception of the growth/efficacy of social programs/liberalism over the last 50 years because you continually fail to address my points.

Its not the objectivist you have to worry about blocking what you want. Its the fact that what you want will only happen successfully in a culturally homogenous state. See if we have to live in a relativist multiculturalist society then rampant capitalism and liberalism is what you will get. If you want deep communal ties, sense of duty, and a collectivist state that works for the interest of the people then you need national socialism. Think of ethnocentric nationalism as the tie that binds the fasci.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Serious question for you leftists (except Alarti, who is incapable of critical thought). Do you feel this is a fair description of your opinion:

1. We have seen a massive increase in social redistribution programs in the United States during the past 50 years
2. These programs primarily benefit the bureaucracy, e.g. welfare doesn't reduce poverty, Obamacare doesn't increase healthcare coverage, etc
3. You want more social redistribution programs or at least to maintain the ones we have

Says the guy getting proved wrong by members on both sides of the argument.

[Nihilist_santa]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Says the guy getting proved wrong by members on both sides of the argument.

Did anyone really expect this guy to answer some direct questions involving his views?

[Pokesan]

I believe in the idiotic strawman you've presented Raev

[Nihilist_santa]

Jesus.....

Can you stay on topic just once? Lets retrace. You mentioned cutting the military budget and using that money for further expansion of social welfare programs. Then you started some BS about we dont have to worry about wars or some shit. Now you are talking about shit like economic warfare, cultural warfare, and other shit (I assume) which had nothing to do with why you feel we need to reallocate those funds to the already wasteful and ineffective social welfare programs. Now you come in and try to derail further since you dont have a point to make.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Nihilist_santa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Guy talks about facts and semantics then comes in and redefines socialism a very specific economic theory as being some defacto state when people work together. Great job there. Says we dont need military spending because no one will attack us. No wonder your fucking guild tanked on red.

I was asked a question which I answered and you responded with this ^^^. So if anyone is changing the subject its you.

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

However, for the sake of pinning you to an answer which country would dare attack the USA? I don't say we need no military spending we just don't need 600billion worth.
I wonder if you will ever actually answer a question.

Be warned if you answer China, be prepared for me to laugh at you. If you answer Russia, be prepared for me to laugh at you. If you answer Iran or North Korea be prepared for me to laugh at you and dismiss you as irrelevant in the future.

My response to you

Originally Posted by Nihilist_santa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Socialism is very specific dude(control of the means of production by the state). You are just showing how full of BS you are. Im not a moron like you so I dont think in simplistic terms of 1 single enemy working alone attacking the US. Starting to doubt you were in the military at this point. Who cares about militarys. Rome wasnt defeated by a military it was defeated by importation of immigrants and over extension of its military,political infighting, and economic disaster caused by slavery.

Here you attempt to change the subject without answering the question (likely because you aren't mentally capable)

Originally Posted by Nihilist_santa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Jesus.....

Can you stay on topic just once? Lets retrace. You mentioned cutting the military budget and using that money for further expansion of social welfare programs. Then you started some BS about we dont have to worry about wars or some shit. Now you are talking about shit like economic warfare, cultural warfare, and other shit (I assume) which had nothing to do with why you feel we need to reallocate those funds to the already wasteful and ineffective social welfare programs. Now you come in and try to derail further since you dont have a point to make.

And now you ask me to stay on topic and to find a point. You can't answer a single one of my questions effectively. Instead you just flail around and project your shortcomings onto others. Seek help kiddo.

[Nihilist_santa]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think the programs as they are implemented are crap not the idea of social programs.

Socialism is a very very very broad term. However, the window-lickers on this forum just label socialism as one bad thing to constantly guard against. The USA is a socialist country. Just about every country is a socialist country to some degree. It's a spectrum... and I'm not talking about the autism spectrum that Santa, Raev, and Daywolf are clearly deep into.

To say I like socialism is akin to saying yes, I like humanity and its ability to better itself through cooperative effort.

I never expressed a like for communism however. Communism is not a system designed for humans who are slaves to biological function. Just like Ayn Rand's version of libertarian doesn't take into account basic humanity.

Taxation is necessary it just needs to be put to better use. Taxation is best served improving the lives of the taxpayer, meaning education, infrastructure, health, and retirement. We don't need 600 billion dollars spent on the military especially since no sovereign country is going to attack us.

If you mean price controls as is preventing price gouging by companies with monopolies or near monopolies than yes that is necessary... Take pharmaceutical companies as an example.

Social reparations... assuming you mean racial reparations etc. I think its an idiotic term. Yes the USA did a bad thing... No I'm not responsible for that bad thing.
However, the end goal of the government should be the betterment of citizens lives. The solution to years of racism and slavery plus lack of societal and economic integration is not handing out a check. This solution isn't about race though its about all the disenfranchised or impoverished, education and reduction of poverty are the best means for the upward mobility of a social class.
The idea that everyone has equal chance to climb the socioeconomic ladder is a lame myth. People who grow up in poverty have very very limited resources to improve their lives.
An often un-thought of fact: If you want to save money on good a person who has access to cash can buy goods in bulk. I poor person living paycheck to paycheck has to buy at top prices always. Being poor is expensive.
In any case Companies are not job creators. Consumers are job creators, purchasing power is what makes jobs, and removing poverty is the best way to create jobs, increase wages, and improve quality of life for every citizen across economic classes..

I noticed you left out your initial post that shows how full of shit you are and how far you took the discussion off topic you slimy shit. See where above you tried to act like because you say so we dont need a military budget? See how that was in response to someone asking you about social programs? Now either you are the dude from Momento or you have to be one of the most dishonest posters on this forum.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Nihilist_santa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All of your problems are solved through ethno-nationalism friend. You guys have been brainwashed into thinking nationalism = imperialism when its the opposite. Globalism is the imperialist force in the word and the left is the only end of that spectrum that pushes global egalitarianism which has to be enforced through global governance.

Also your "more liberal with more education" line is BS. Its well known that people become more conservative over time. Guess that means that youthful idealism drives leftism while experience and wisdom drive conservatism. Something about acquiring private property tends to do that though.

Originally Posted by Nihilist_santa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also want to add that you sound like one of the brown butthurts getting the deportation force come January.

Can you be an ICE reservist or something? Im a civic minded kind of guy so just trying to do my part.

Originally Posted by Nihilist_santa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I noticed you left out your initial post that shows how full of shit you are and how far you took the discussion off topic you slimy shit. See where above you tried to act like because you say so we dont need a military budget? See how that was in response to someone asking you about social programs? Now either you are the dude from Momento or you have to be one of the most dishonest posters on this forum.

Would you like to quote that post then so we can see which post you speak of?