Variance

[hivemind]

Originally Posted by Buhbuh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is absolutely about Nihilum and Azrael. You're asking for variance based on the strength of a current guild on the server. How is that not about about guilds on the server?

This seems to be a sticking point for you, and I can understand that. I am sure you are not the only one. From my first post in this thread, I have been championing for a more competitive server. What I mean by a "more competitive server" is a server where the top guild/team/faction has a harder time maintaining #1. What do I mean by a top guild/team/faction? What do I mean by maintaining #1? I mean the guild who is killing the most dragons, ie getting the most loot. On a more competitive server, it would be more difficult for the top guild to get as much loot (ie to kill as many dragons and maintain #1).

None of that is subjective or Nihilum/Azrael related. I am just telling you what I mean when I use words like "competition," "competitive," "#1," "top guild/team/faction." In a very general sense I would like this server to be more competitive (and in a slightly more specific sense I would like to see more than two guilds contesting all the content). When we apply that general model of wanting a more competitive server to our specific red99 box, we can see first hand who is currently the dominant guild (Nihilum, in case you were confused), and we can see their only competition -- Azrael.

So in the case of implementing variance on red99, yes-- there would be a desire to make it more difficult for Nihilum specifically (the current dominant guild) to remain the current dominant guild, ie make it more difficult for them to continue acquiring as much loot as they are currently doing. In order to do so, they would **necessarily** have to expend more efforts to accomplish the "unnecessary poopsocking" that you all are so convinced you'll be able to do.

So while implementing variance would undoubtedly make it more difficult for Nihilum to remain #1 (unless they are the poopsock masterminds which we are all convinced you are), my desire to implement variance is wholly to make the server more competitive **IN GENERAL**. But you are absolutely right in understanding that Nihilum is currently the dominant guild and they would have the most to lose right now if variance was implemented. Not that it matters so much (and not that it hasn't already been stated multiple times...) but Lite was pro-variance during the short stint that his guild was top dog, ie killing the majority of the raid targets. That is not to say that Azrael would not have suffered a loss of power at that point (or at least had to expend more "unnecessary" efforts to acquire the same amount of loot) ... I am pretty sure that Lite (or anyone who is in a dominant guild at the time) understands that implementing variance will take away some power from their guild. This is a necessary part of balance...

[Zereh]

I'm pretty confident that whatever contrived restraints you try to place on the "top guild" that top guild will figure out a way to remain exactly where they've always been.

[mikemandella]

Originally Posted by Zereh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm pretty confident that whatever contrived restraints you try to place on the "top guild" that top guild will figure out a way to remain exactly where they've always been.

"A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid.”

- Oppressor

[hivemind]

Originally Posted by hivemind [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ITT: Nihilum members still arguing that variance will do nothing to change the course of the server. They are too convinced that regardless of whatever changes the staff will implement, Nihilum will come out on top. Not even going to quote people this time since I would literally have to quote half the people in the thread.

Forgive me, for I have quoted.

Originally Posted by Zereh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm pretty confident that whatever contrived restraints you try to place on the "top guild" that top guild will figure out a way to remain exactly where they've always been.

[Gaanon]

Originally Posted by Zereh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm pretty confident that whatever contrived restraints you try to place on the "top guild" that top guild will figure out a way to remain exactly where they've always been.

I just look at evidence, like how many guilds have successfully contested on Red99, one.

How many guilds were just absorbed because they can't do anything on their own, TONS.

[lite]

Originally Posted by Zereh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm pretty confident that whatever contrived restraints you try to place on the "top guild" that top guild will figure out a way to remain exactly where they've always been.

Not sure how many times it has to be said. Everyone is ok with nihilum having the top spot. They are the most devoted. Variance is meant to enable a playstyle other than biggest guild takes all.

[hivemind]

Originally Posted by r00t [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

heres the equation for variance

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

where x is the sample mean and n-1 is the degree of freedom

One of the few intelligent posts in this thread.

Originally Posted by heartbrand [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You realize that you only need to login the tracker bot every hour or two for thirty seconds right? Holy fuck a lot of dumb people on the boards today. I know VP. I know that I can park ranger bots that I can easily camp out in thirty seconds. And if I can't? Oh well call LNS and camp out in zone for an hour per Sirken rule and log right back in again with literally nothing lost. Sounds like incredibly thrilling pvp at its best.

One of the many unintelligent posts in this thread.

Originally Posted by hivemind [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ITT: Nihilum members still arguing that variance will do nothing to change the course of the server. They are too convinced that regardless of whatever changes the staff will implement, Nihilum will come out on top.

Heartbrand... what an elegant and simple solution to the implementation of variance for Nihilum. Just VP-key up a few level 10 rangers, and after you've done that ... well, it's still easy street from there. All you have to do is park them in VP and just log them on for 30 seconds each every hour. What is the point of a variance system when you have provided such a simple, yet elegant solution that is both fail-safe and uncounterable.

It's funny trying to see people from Nihilum argue over, and over, and over again that there is nothing that the staff or Azrael could do to bring Nihilum down from #1. News flash: your reading comprehension skills are still at an all time low. This thread is about increasing the general competitiveness of the server, so stop referring to things in terms of Azrael or Nihilum, whatever the particular strengths or weaknesses those guilds or their leaders/members might have.

The GMs/staff here do not care what the guild name of the top guild is on the server. I am sure they care about balance though, and balance in the context of this server has a lot to do with the competitive nature of the end game. And to make the server more competitive in a general sense, there needs to be changes that make it harder for the dominant guild to remain dominant. I have stated this in more explicit and precise language in previous posts, so I won't bother repeating myself again here.

Everyone can understand why people in Nihilum would argue against variance... variance will force Nihilum to conduct the "unnecessary poopsocking" required in order to continue to get as much loot as they do currently. Nihilum happens to be the dominant guild right now (and they happen to have been the dominant guild for majority of the server's history), but as precious as your pixels may be... try to understand this change in the context of a pvp server... not red99 specifically.

So much bias, so little objectivism.

[Ames who?]

Originally Posted by hivemind [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

One of the few intelligent posts in this thread.




One of the many unintelligent posts in this thread.




Heartbrand... what an elegant and simple solution to the implementation of variance for Nihilum. Just VP-key up a few level 10 rangers, and after you've done that ... well, it's still easy street from there. All you have to do is park them in VP and just log them on for 30 seconds each every hour. What is the point of a variance system when you have provided such a simple, yet elegant solution that is both fail-safe and uncounterable.

It's funny trying to see people from Nihilum argue over, and over, and over again that there is nothing that the staff or Azrael could do to bring Nihilum down from #1. News flash: your reading comprehension skills are still at an all time low. This thread is about increasing the general competitiveness of the server, so stop referring to things in terms of Azrael or Nihilum, whatever the particular strengths or weaknesses those guilds or their leaders/members might have.

The GMs/staff here do not care what the guild name of the top guild is on the server. I am sure they care about balance though, and balance in the context of this server has a lot to do with the competitive nature of the end game. And to make the server more competitive in a general sense, there needs to be changes that make it harder for the dominant guild to remain dominant. I have stated this in more explicit and precise language in previous posts, so I won't bother repeating myself again here.

Everyone can understand why people in Nihilum would argue against variance... variance will force Nihilum to conduct the "unnecessary poopsocking" required in order to continue to get as much loot as they do currently. Nihilum happens to be the dominant guild right now (and they happen to have been the dominant guild for majority of the server's history), but as precious as your pixels may be... try to understand this change in the context of a pvp server... not red99 specifically.

So much bias, so little objectivism.

what the fuck

[Gaanon]

I never made the thread I'm done caring one way or the other too much Velious will add a lot of content, but it would be nice to have several competing guilds instead of everyone bitching out worried about Velious loot joining the same one.

[heartbrand]

If you want there to be multiple guilds, then people need to feel as though they can advance their characters in a meaningful way in one of the smaller guilds. Variance won't allow them to do so. Smaller guilds tend to be more casual, and I can't imagine 20 people sitting at Trakanon for twelve hours uncontested waiting for it to pop. Variance, if you knew how it works, will result in people just poopsocking the mobs whose windows are open for bonus dkp.

Where is this magical pvp coming from? You're going to kill some level 10 ranger hidden in a corner in seb or something? You gonna kill the level 1 ranger in VP behind 100 mobs who logs in for 30 seconds? Sounds like amazing pvp.

Sim Repops allow small guilds to thrive and snipe targets, progress their characters, and then cuts down on the desire of everyone to join one guild. Alliances form, tons of pvp, etc. It ain't rocket science and it's classic, what a shock. I kind of hope they do put variance in tho, so that five azrael can sit at talendor for twenty hours for a shot at a selo drum only to be steam rolled within ten minutes by 50 brave dukesmen logging on their talendor alts within moments of the bat phone.