Elder Scrolls Online

[MrSparkle001]

Originally Posted by Tradesonred [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ill repeat my question, Is there a point in the game where you stop being in these hermetically sealed PVE bubbles to enter a section of the game, lets call it the true game, where its a large open ended world where you can encounter players from other factions while questing, exploring, etc... Did i miss this true game or it doesnt exist.

No, it's like DAOC in that regard. You don't encounter the enemy factions in the PvE world and as of right now you can't travel to their maps.

This game is a mix of elder scrolls and DAOC, specifically Skyrim and DAOC (and to a lesser extent Skyrim and Rift, although ESO does have rifts now oh I mean anchors). If you liked both games like me you'll probably like this game. The criticisms people have about ESO are generally the same criticisms they'd have about DAOC so I'm thinking they never played it or didn't like it when they did.

The world is open once you reach the main map (which for Daggerfall is Glenumbra). I'm assuming it's not in fact the main map but rather the map containing the home city and the lower level content. There are probably more maps later on for higher levels. We only have access to content up to the low teens; there's 30+ levels of maps and content we are totally unaware of not including Cyrodiil.

You can explore and find quests but you better be the proper level for them because some of them are TOUGH. Not all are tough but some of them make you wonder why they chose such a low recommended level.

I can also almost guarantee that future expansion maps will have all three factions and PvE content mixed together including mixed cities. Tamriel only has so many areas before you start getting into things like different planes and oblivion and whatnot. I personally don't like the factions intermingling (I hated it in WoW) but that seems to be the way these games evolve now.

[Grubbz]

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But I cannot agree with people saying it is exactly like World of Warcraft because it is not. There is a sense of mysticism and wonder when I play the game and there hasn't been an MMO that I have beta tested (and I have tested a shitload of fucking games) where I went, "Man, I almost don't want to beta test this because I really just want the actual game to be out." Since probably... World of Warcraft.

I felt the exact same way...

[Grubbz]

Just got the survey filled out, cannot wait to see how they improve an already great game.

[Nopsi]

funny that so many people here are complaining about the monthly payment method... EQ1 was at that base too, wasnt it?

i liked the 20 minutes gameplay, more wasnt available for me this weekend, i got stuck at The Prophet (get a Skyshard) and the Support responded today [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

well, nvm, i will buy it, i will max lvl a few chars and try out some stuff - and then? well, let see [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Uteunayr]

Ah, ESO. Well, let me offer some reasons that I think this game is lackluster at best, and offers absolutely nothing to the MMO community, and even less to the TES community. This may not be something you agree with, and that's fine, but listen to my reasons. You may not weigh the same things with the same weight I do, and that can result in you still enjoying or liking the game, while I do not. For readers who have never played ESO's beta, or looked into the game's design philosophy, then consider how much these considerations are important to you.

Note, I start each paragraph from here on out with a brief phrase indicating what it is the paragraph is about. This is very long, but it focuses not on the payment model, but entirely upon gameplay, playstyle, and character progression. Don't read this if you don't want to read a very long, thought out critique of ESO as a game.

ESO v. WoW (Playstyle): Allow me to begin at the root that I hear many people shout, "this game is like WoW". This is not exactly true. In World of Warcraft, you are given 12-36 buttons that vary in function, which you use to survive and win in combat. This is not what ESO gives you. What you get with ESO is a combination of 6 possible abilities, one of which is an "ultimate", a very popular set up in more modern MMOs. In addition to these 6 possible abilities, you replace the auto-attack function with a left-click to attack, or hold left click to charge attack.

ESO v. WoW (Gameplay): This is fundamentally different playstyle, by which I mean the way that the player inputs their actions into the game world. However, what remains unchanged from the WoW structure is the gameplay, by which I refer to the way the world reacts and gives you things to act upon. Take an Orc Warrior in World of Warcraft, and as this Orc Warrior, you spawn into the Valley of Trials. From there, you do X number of quests, and then leave the Valley and move on to Sen'jin Village. Once you do X number of quests there, you move on to Razor Hill... And then the Barrens. By and large, these quests are brief parts of a greater whole.

WoW Gameplay, the Themepark: The WoW Style of This is the "themepark" model many refer to, as once you leave Sen'jin Village, you never have a reason to return there. EverQuest, prior to this, had an interconnected style, in which you would constantly double back upon yourself while exploring the world, to see things you have seen before, but new places within those same places (think about being a newb in Oasis, seeing the spectres, and returning there 20-25 levels later to kill them yourself). In this style, ESO is no innovation. It provides the same basic quest structure that WoW has made a standard in so many games. Even the more innovative MMOs out there do not offer a difference upon this system. You do quests, you exhaust the quests in that area, and then you move on to the next place to exhaust that. Instead of wandering around and exploring a world, you're being guided on a tour of the world, as a consumer, rather than just an explorer.

TES Gameplay, Questing in Skyrim: Now, this is what MMO players are likely used to, so this may be an issue to those of us (myself included) who abhor this style of gameplay, but TES fans are surely to find this the most atrocious. Take Skyrim, often considered one of the easiest of the TES games. Quests consume time. You get a quest escaping Helgen, and it guides you to Riverwood, which guides you to Whiterun. A good bit of time passes in this section. Next, you get the quest to go and find The Dragonstone. So you prepare, you get gold together, you buy what you need, you head out, run across the fields, fight a few things on the way for your safety, climb up the kills, get ambushed by bandits, break into Bleak Falls Barrow, ambush bandits, and on the way in, you find a guy wrapped up in spider webs. You free him, and he runs for it, and you chase him, kill him, and find a claw. What is this claw? What is it for? Does the game tell you? No. You pick up the guy's journal, and the claw, and continue onward in your quest. You get to a locked door after fighting through a few more puzzles and challenges, and you read the journal to break the puzzle of the golden claw, get inside the tomb, kill the top Draugr, and while doing so, you get imbued with the power of the Unrelenting Shout, as well as The Dragonstone.

ESO Gameplay, Questing in Skyrim: That is a quest in The Elder Scrolls. This is not what a quest feels like in ESO. One of the first quests I got as a Nord was to head north and find a guy. My compass pointed me to him, and I completed the quest, and got some cash. I then got a new quest to infiltrate bandits, and collect 3 pages. I did so in about 2 minutes, and completed the quest, got some cash. I then got a quest to go to the mine entrance, which took maybe 10 seconds. I completed that quest, got more cash, and went into the mine and killed something. I complete the quest, get some cash, and then went into an Oblivion Stone, kill two people, get teleported out, and complete a quest, and get some cash. And then I get a quest to go back out of the mine... Etc. You see what I mean. This isn't one grand adventure that you're embarking on. You are doing small iddy bitty things that do not equate to what a "Quest" is. This is what WoW questing is like, not what TES questing is traditionally like. Note, what I describe was delivered as the main quest, not a miscellaneous quest (as I have noticed some people say that the misc quests in Skyrim are also brief, but this isn't misc in ESO). Questing isn't as cumbersome, it isn't as epic, it isn't as rewarding, or as meaningful as it is to TES, or even EQ players who know what questing for something feels like in an Arthurian style.

ESO Character Progression: A closely related subject is character progression, something that I think is terribly disappointing as far as a game is concerned. ESO gives you, at character creation, 4 generic classes, which give you access to a small, select number of class skills, as well as weapon skills, armor skills, and the like. But these are unique to your starting class. As you progress, you unlock more advanced classes, which are similar to D&D's "Prestige Classes". However, these are rigid classes. So, if you begin as a fighter style (I forget the lore based name they assign to it), you are always that, and then just expand upon that style. You cannot, as is classic to the TES experience, switch up what you do, or blend things to make unique classes.

TES Character Progression: Although TES games like Morrowind and Oblivion both had classes, the classes were nothing more than pre-designed synergistic combinations of abilities. You were able to customize, instead of selecting a class, to take different combinations of abilities that, even if they were not synergistic, they were fun for you to play. So you could take Marksmanship, Destruction, Heavy Armor, Stealth, and Acrobatics. Why not? Sure, Heavy Armor may not fit, but fuck, it's a game! Have fun! In Skyrim, the new approach was to not offer any classes, and instead just drop the player into situations with numerous different paths to take (use the bow, use magic, use sword and board, use two handed), and give the player the chance to go in any direction they want. This is the inherent TES experience. This is what ESO lacks entirely.

An Alternative Based On a Past MMO: The sad truth is that this signifies to me that Bethesda is simply attempting to imitate other MMOs, rather than trying to innovate. And even in imitating rather than innovating, they do not even imitate a system that works best for their fans. Think about the TES Skyrim progression. As you level, you gain perk points. These perk points are rare, and so you may level up by doing archery, but you spend your perks in 1 handed as that's your focus, but you've capped it. The way you allocate your perk points defines the strengths and weaknesses of your character, in conjunction with gear. This does not lend itself to a game that gives you limited options to select based on class, if you want to keep the essential TES Experience... A game has offered a system that offer a reasonably TES experience to players in a MMO environment, and that game was one that came about before WoW's dominance, and one that is pretty much only known for the progression system it offered: SWG.

SWG Progression: In SWG, you had 250 skill points. All players had these, and you can never truly consume them, only have them tied up. So how it worked was simple. You are a blank slate. You have starting "professions": artisan, entertainer, medic, scout, marksman, or brawler. So, what do you want to do? Artisan branches into Weaponsmithing, Armorsmithing, Architecture, and Droid Engineering. Entertainer into dancer, musician, and the like. Medic into Doctor. And so on, and so on. When you decide to take a starting profession, the skill "Novice <profession>" ties up X number of skill points (15), so you now have 235 left. As you do things pertaining to your profession, you gain experience in the different aspects of your profession. When you get enough, you can get trained, which consumes the experience, and ties up more skill points. The idea is that you can combine anything you want up to 250 skill points. So, you want to be a Commando/Architect? You take Brawler and Marksman to branch into Commando (not taking the full tree in either Brawler or Marksman, only those needed for Commando), take Novice Commando, and everything in Commando, as well as take Artisan, and everything to become an Architect. But lets say you decide you don't want to do it anymore, you don't like being an architect. You can surrender your Architect skills, get back your Skill Points, and reinvest them in new talents.

How ESO can benefit from SWG: Imagine Skyrim's talent system, but expanded. One in which you can have, at any one time, 50 perks from the talent trees. You can work your way up One Handed and Destruction, or Two Handed and Alteration, and distribute your points to take both full trees. Or you can spread them over a wide range of different trees, and take less from each. The only restrain is you cannot go over 50 perk points. Decide you don't want to go Two-Handed and Alteration, but want to go Alteration, Restoration, and Heavy Armor? Delete your perks, freeing yourself from the 50 cap, and reinvest the perks elsewhere. This would let you have a system that is still inherently TES, but versatile enough to be MMO capable.

Conclusion: But ESO ultimately feels lackluster if you're a gamer like me that has played pretty much every MMO that has ever come out, and has become weary of the stagnation in MMO innovation that came about due to WoW's success. If you're looking for something brand new, something shiny, something awesome, ESO is not it. If you are not like me, and you can still take a great deal of fun from questing themeparks, and limited structured progression systems, then you will be more than happy with ESO. As for me, my only hope is with EQN. No, it will not be EverQuest as we know it, and while it doesn't offer that innovative of a progression system (basically the same as TSW, GW2, and other pseudo-horizontal progression systems), it does offer the first real, interesting chance for dynamic gameplay that is driven by the "adventure" grind, rather than a creature grind (EQ1) or quest grind (WoW, ESO, EQ2). This is primarily due to the idea of having NPCs form their own camps, and work in a more dynamic way, than having a strict structure that is necessary in both creature grind and quest grinds, as this creates a more randomized experience in which players can make their own fun, rather than being guided. So, that's why EQN is pretty much my only hope beyond P1999. I had hopes ESO would innovate, but I have not seen that, and although I thought it was likely they wouldn't innovate, I am highly disappointed that they didn't imitate something better than the WoW gameplay structure, and a similar character progression structure that mine as well be the WoW class and talent system. It is ultimately very sad.

[Lune]

^

I read your entire novel and I agree with most of it, some correct observations about the way their system works and how it might not appeal to us.

However, I need to point out that:

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ESO Character Progression: A closely related subject is character progression, something that I think is terribly disappointing as far as a game is concerned. ESO gives you, at character creation, 4 generic classes, which give you access to a small, select number of class skills, as well as weapon skills, armor skills, and the like. But these are unique to your starting class. As you progress, you unlock more advanced classes, which are similar to D&D's "Prestige Classes". However, these are rigid classes. So, if you begin as a fighter style (I forget the lore based name they assign to it), you are always that, and then just expand upon that style. You cannot, as is classic to the TES experience, switch up what you do, or blend things to make unique classes.

...is mostly inaccurate. Each class has three subdivisions you can put points into to specialize in certain things. You can put your points into just one, two, or all three sections as you level. You're not really "unlocking" a new class, so much as you're using your points to build your own class.

In no way do you "begin as a fighter style" and get stuck that way. I think pretty much every class has at least one tree that synergizes as well with magic/ranged styles as it does with melee.

Let's say you choose a Nightblade, which has a lot of rogueish choices that work well with a stealthy character. Well it just so happens that the assassination tree has a ton of abilities that just flat out increase the shit out of your killing power, and IIRC only one skill in that tree has anything to do with stealth. So you can make a Nightblade, put points into Assassination, Two-Handed swords, and Heavy Armor, and you have a warrior type character who is good at doing bursty damage and has some nice ways to counter healers and finish people off. Even more, you can put a point (or more) in Strife in the Siphoning tree and you have a warrior-type char with killing power who can lifetap and snare people.

There are a ton of different combinations that are surprisingly effective if you approach the skills creatively. Further, you can keep putting points into multiple weapons and multiple subdivisions in your class and switch around at will. From what I saw, you get enough points to where you can diversify pretty liberally if you want to.

Ultimately, the class sytem is TESO is something I really like; it's probably my favorite class system in any MMO or Elder Scrolls game to date. Otherwise, I share most of your other gripes.

(Last beta I played a Nightblade - Bow wood elf. Leveled bow, medium armor, and strife tree. Used the ranged utility snares/lifetaps/stuns/CC from strife to complement my bow skills. Next one I might try a Dark elf dragonknight flame wrath or whatever it's called. Light armor, destruction staff, and ranged fire abilities, amounting to something of a ranged fire mage with access to some neat DK skills.)

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...is mostly inaccurate. Each class has three subdivisions you can put points into to specialize in certain things. You can put your points into just one, two, or all three sections as you level. You're not really "unlocking" a new class, so much as you're using your points to build your own class.

In no way do you "begin as a fighter style" and get stuck that way. I think pretty much every class has at least one tree that synergizes as well with magic/ranged styles as well as it does with melee.

Let's say you choose a Nightblade, which has a lot of rogueish choices that work well with a stealthy character. Well it just so happens that the assassination tree has a ton of abilities that just flat out increase the shit out of your killing power, and IIRC only one skill in that tree has anything to do with stealth. So you can make a Nightblade, put points into Assassination, Two-Handed swords, and Heavy Armor, and you have a warrior type character who is good at doing bursty damage. Even more, you can put a point (or more) in Strife in the Siphoning tree and you have a warrior-type char with killing power who can lifetap and snare people.

There are a ton of different combinations that are surprisingly effective if you approach the skills creatively. Further, you can keep putting points into multiple weapons and multiple subdivisions in your class and switch around at will. From what I saw, you get enough points to where you can diversify pretty liberally if you want to.

Ultimately, the class sytem is TESO is something I really like; it's probably my favorite class system in any MMO or Elder Scrolls game to date. Otherwise, I share most of your other gripes.

(Last beta I played a Nightblade - Bow wood elf. Leveled bow, medium armor, and strife tree. Used the ranged utility snares/lifetaps/stuns/CC from strife to complement my bow skills. Next one I might try a Dark elf dragonknight flame wrath or whatever it's called. Light armor, destruction staff, and ranged fire abilities, amounting to something of a ranged fire mage with access to some neat DK skills.)

I disagree. Each class has 3 subdivisions, yes, but other classes do not get those other subdivisions. So, you have the spellcaster catch all, and the fighter catch all, the two that I played extensively over a number of different beta weekends. The fighter catch all never had access to the spell tree the spellcaster catch all did to summon an imp. No matter what I could do to my fighter, he would never, ever be able to go down the spell line to conjure. This is not TES style, this is far closer to what WoW had for ages, with three subdivisions of each class in which you invest talent points into. Sure, you can put points in each, and as you put points in each, you unlock new abilities, and this is true of both games, but for all the illusion of choice, it always comes down to a rather simple minmax based on the broad class. In WoW, you were never able to make a Holy Warrior, unless you rerolled your Warrior into a Paladin, but then you're not a Warrior, and you better hope you enjoy Paladin more than Warrior if you wanted to be a Holy Warrior. Similarly, my fighter catch all in ESO couldn't access the talent trees that the spellcaster catch all could.

If you start a fighter, you're always a fighter, you just vary it upon a pre-designed theme, rather than one of your creation. You start a paladin, you're always a paladin, only vary slightly upon the theme. Similarly, you start a fighter catch all, you're always a fighter catch all, with variations upon that theme, never grabbing beyond. So I disagree when you say "In no way do you "begin as a fighter style" and get stuck that way." Tell me if it has changed and you now have access to every single talent tree in the game for any class you pick. And then tell me what the heck the purpose of a class is if those options are there. The class servers only to constrain, and TES isn't about constrained options in progression.

You will never have the freedom to fully design a unique character in the game, as your choices are constrained to a limited subdivision of the basic catch all class. You are not given all the tools, you're given limited tools in which to design your character. You make a Nightblade, and you can put points into Assassination, but you cannot put them into something another basic class would get, to use those abilities. You are inherently playing a class with limited range, rather than having a grab bag of stuff to go for, which is traditional TES, and the style that TES is about.

You like the ESO system, I think it is among the most horrendous systems ever designed, as it takes one of the best RPG series out there, and corrupts it with the ghost of WoW progression in the worst possible way. It is truly an abomination. The only reason I label it as the most horrendous, even though I find it to be pretty much equivalent to WoW's earlier talent system, is that ESO follows in the legacy of TES, and that holds it to a higher standard. Bethesda should know better.

Horrible system. Absolutely atrocious.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I disagree that it is inaccurate, and here's why. Each class has 3 subdivisions, yes, but other classes do not get those other subdivisions. So, you have the spellcaster catch all, and the fighter catch all, the two that I played extensively over a number of different beta weekends. The fighter catch all never had access to the spell tree the spellcaster catch all did to summon an imp. No matter what I could do to my fighter, he would never, ever be able to go down the spell line to conjure. This is a bother to me, and just about anyone else who loves TES for the versatility it offers.

This is not how the class system works. You do not understand it. The classes are not "catch-alls". Your status as a fighter or a spellcaster is determined by a combination of your choice of weapon, armor, and class tree selections. There are numerous viable combinations for casters and melees within every class.

I don't think the fact that you want your fighter to be able to summon an imp for the novelty is speaking for everyone else who loves TES, especially when TESO is meant to include PvP/RvR. Personally, I am a fan of making choices that have consequences. If you really want to be a fighter that can make an imp, make a sorcerer, spec in Dark Magic for the abilities that synergize quite well with melee, use a two hander, and heavy or medium armor. Then grab your imp from conj tree. Congratulations, you've made your own class that uses the abilities you like, and it's probably actually fairly strong.

The alternative? Give everybody access to everything. Homogenize everybody. I think that would be ridiculous, and more WoW-like than anything else.

[Grimfan]

Not to mention you unlock new trees as you progress through the game and discover things. You meet a group of individuals called the Undaunted which have group/raiding abilities that you can put skill points into. There is a fighters guild and a mages guild which both have lines that you can go down with their own special abilities and ways to level those trees. Eventually you will have werewolf and vampire lines, they are already talking about the thieves guild and dark brotherhood and each player can join these factions and make use of their skills if they wish to do so and this feels really Elder Scrolls to me.

I don't agree with your initial long post either, I don't feel like the questing is the same as WoW. Yes, you get your hand held through some things, but quests and locations are in off the path areas. There are very few quests in the main hubs and a lot of your adventures will make you feel like you're actually exploring the game world rather than just being led through one area after the next.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is not how the class system works. You do not understand it. The classes are not "catch-alls". Your status as a fighter or a spellcaster is determined by a combination of your choice of weapon, armor, and class tree selections. There are numerous viable combinations for casters and melees within every class.

But that is how the class system works. You pick a class, and you get 3 talent trees unique to that class, and then a talent tree for weaponry/armor.

Please, tell me if I am wrong. Tell me that the class system doesn't limit you to three specific talent trees that no other class can get. Tell me that conjuration is not unique to the sorcerer, and that as the fighter catch all class, I can pick up conjuration style abilities. Skyrim would let me, Morrowind would let me, Oblivion would let me. That's what TES is like. Will ESO? Or will ESO require me to be a spellcaster first, so that I can get the conjuration abilities, and then put points into Armor/Weapons to make myself into a Wizard Warrior, but forego all the melee abilities that I would like (which are exclusive to the fighter catch all), because I wanted one magic ability that was exclusive to the spellcaster catch all. And if I instead started as a Fighter, and later on decided I wanted to try out conjuration, I'd be SOL without making an entirely new toon, beginning a game of alt-creation rather than character enrichment.

If you can tell me that that is completely inaccurate to what the reality of the game's classes are, I will ask you for your next beta to please record your character creation and progression process, and show the fact that someone who goes for the wizard catch all to have the spellcasting of conjuration can also use abilities that were previously unique to the fighter catch all.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think the fact that you want your fighter to be able to summon an imp for the novelty is speaking for everyone else who loves TES,

That's just one of literally thousands of possible combinations that are unique and possible in Skyrim's system. Many people here have created an interesting and fun build. That is entirely curtailed by the sustem in ESO. No, my individual desire to play a fighter that can summon an imp doesn't gimp it, but the vast majority of people that love TES love it not only for its exploration and questing (which we agree is fucked up in ESO), but in the variations in choice you have. ESO does not have that in the least. It is not isolated to my one desire to play a fighter with conjuration. There are many combinations you could do in a more free system traditional to TES that ESO gimps.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

especially when TESO is meant to include PvP/RvR.

SWG was a heavy PvP game, as it was pretty much the game's entire endgame. It managed just fine until SoE revamped the entire game to fit WoW, and then the numbers bled.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Personally, I am a fan of making choices that have consequences.

Choices have consequences, not determinism. In Morrowind, selecting a custom class and making yourself have major skills in One Handed, Blocking, Heavy Armor, Acrobatics, and Athleticism, didn't mean you absolutely couldn't do Conjuration, Alteration, Restoration, Destruction, etc. It meant that the consequence of your character creation is that should you choose to not do what you were created to do, it is a lot harder. In other words, your "class", your combination of primary and secondary skills, those leveled and progressed faster, because your character was naturally talented at those. That's a consequence if you seek to go beyond, but to fix the consequence, you don't have to reroll an entire toon.

And that's what WoW did, that's what this will do. You'll roll your toon over and over to build different styles, rather than exploring what your one character can do, and explore the consequences of slow leveling in doing things you're not talented at.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you really want to be a fighter that can make an imp, make a sorcerer, spec in Dark Magic for the abilities that synergize quite well with melee, use a two hander, and heavy armor. Then grab your imp from conj tree. Congratulations, you've made your own class that uses the abilities you like, and it's probably actually fairly strong.

And then what about the heavy offensive melee abilities? My talent trees from being a sorcerer only gives me 3 talent trees, none of which include the heavy hitting melee styles. My talents are limited to those of the sorcerer. So, if I want to go this path, I need to entirely ignore two of my three talent trees, only focus on the conjuration one, and deal with that. That's a really shitty system to constrain your choice that much. So no, that's not "my own class", that's a single specced sorcerer, rather than a warrior that dabbles in conjuration.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The alternative? Give everybody access to everything. Homogenize everybody. I think that would be ridiculous, and more WoW-like than anything else.

Bullshit. Here you're just using language to try and get a knee-jerk reaction out of people. Homogenization is making two distinctly different things uniform between each other, you make them the same. That is not what the alternative is, otherwise everyone in SWG for the first two years under this system would be the exact same thing, as would TSW characters. Similarly, every player in Skyrim would be the exact same character, and every character in Morrowind and Oblivion would also be the exact same thing. But that's not what you see, you see a lot more creativity and interesting designs in those games, that are not equal, their strength is based on their synergy, even in the highest levels of difficulty.

Offering vast new options, leaving everything available to everyone, within constraints of how many toys they can take (250 skill points, maximum number of perks) is a far cry from homogenization. Anyone who has played any of these games knows that. To paint it in such black and white terms as you have (class or homogenization) is simply silly.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

Originally Posted by Grimfan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't agree with your initial long post either, I don't feel like the questing is the same as WoW. Yes, you get your hand held through some things, but quests and locations are in off the path areas. There are very few quests in the main hubs and a lot of your adventures will make you feel like you're actually exploring the game world rather than just being led through one area after the next.

WoW quests were off the main path areas. The questing is remarkably similar to what it is in WoW. Explain what it is that makes ESO questing distinctly different from WoW. It still works in a themepark structure, it still works based on pumping out massive quantities of quests quickly, rather than making them epic. You say you disagree, but with what? That there are few quests in the main hubs? Play WoW now days, most quests are gathered while you do other quests, and are chained. It's the same thing. I just quit WoW a few months ago because of it, after operating and running a raiding guild for three years and leveling a server full of 90s (11x).