Bumamgar

[Loke]

Originally Posted by Chicka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Loke, you must know that is not the whole story, or maybe you don't.

First, you killed Draco, it was your mob after you had failed the 50 min timer on Inny, all good, but then you steamrolled into Inny too after IB had downed the golems and now had claim and needed to clear fear. But of course you, AS A RAID, knew you didn't have to clear fear because your guild leader (dressed as one of his alt accounts - winterfresh) and at least one officer rounded up the fear mobs that came to his aid and trained IB with them as we were clearing - the supporting screenshots almost certainly secured those two bans, no player made rules necessary. And you, AS A RAID, knew you did not have rights to both mobs. Frankly I think you got off lightly as a guild, even in retrospect. I don't know how you got 40-50 people or whatever you had to follow that path - they couldn't have all been ignorant of what was going on.

The big difference between that BS, and what happened with WI is that, whether you like it or not, IB chose not to enforce their rights in the situation, and therefore no rule was broken, player made or otherwise.

I assure you that I never come here and talk about things without knowing the full story. I am very careful in what I say - it just so happens that people often fail to take the same care when reading what I say.

I stipulated two (2) bans, because only two of the suspensions that occured from that incident were a result of DA not following player made rules as the GM understood them. There were a total of four (4) suspensions.

I assure you that I know the whole story.

[Cyrius]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Either you're being purposely disingenuous or you are completely ignorant as to what actually happened



IB violated the raid rules by engaging the golems to trigger consistent death touches. This was done by Otto, to slow down DA as they worked towards the golems. This is in direct violation of Nilbog's rules. Not the player made rules. Nilbog's rules since it states clearly you are absolutely supposed to respect the raid and not attempt to engage the mob they are going for. in this instance, the mobs DA was going for were the golems and your guild purposely aggroed them with a rogue to initiate zone wide death touches from CT. This was done to prevent DA from killing the golems within 50 minutes.

By violating the raid rules, you forfeited your rights to any potential claim. Those are the facts.



In all honesty WI opened up a can of worms. It wasn't up to IB to enforce anything. IB didn't have a leg to stand on since Nilbog has stated he doesn't recognize player made rules. Now as to whether Cyrius or Feiel would have acted differently remains to be seen. I don't even want to begin to speculate, given the questionable past of said GMs.

Please, be my guest. I asked numerous times for evidence that Otto disrupted your raid. You failed to provide this, i did not receive a single conclusive piece of evidence from you. The evidence of the other 4 breaking server rules was uncontestable.

I do not enforce player rules. The only thing i ever did for you guys was tell you my interpretation of the player made rules on a fear raid where both guilds asked me to. After that i received tells from both guilds that they are fine now.

[Humerox]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

IB violated the raid rules by engaging the golems to trigger consistent death touches. This was done by Otto, to slow down DA as they worked towards the golems. This is in direct violation of Nilbog's rules. Not the player made rules.

Playing the Devil's advocate here, it's not in violation of server rules. Server rules say not a damn thing about strategy or tactics preventing or inhibiting engagement of a raid mob.

It's wrong, but would require GM intervention under the server rules to clarify, if someone wanted to be asinine enough to do it. And nothing under the server rules would prevent someone from doing the exact same thing another time.

[Loke]

Originally Posted by Cyrius [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The evidence of the other 4 breaking server rules was uncontestable.

I would, and have vehemently disagreed with this statement. 3 of the 6 suspensions that DA has recieved in the past month or so are more than justified (training, training and 2-boxing) - those three people deserved their suspensions and no one from DA argued otherwise.

However, the other 3:
1) Being a raid leader
2) Training... no; wait, being a raid leader... no; wait, looting a contested mob!
3) Accidental training that even the guild that was trained agreed was taken out of context.

Are in no way stipulated as reasons for suspension in the server rules and was extremely contestable.

That is neither here nor there though and is in the past.

[G13]

Originally Posted by Humerox [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Playing the Devil's advocate here, it's not in violation of server rules. Server rules say not a damn thing about strategy or tactics preventing or inhibiting engagement of a raid mob.

It's wrong, but would require GM intervention under the server rules to clarify, if someone wanted to be asinine enough to do it. And nothing under the server rules would prevent someone from doing the exact same thing another time.

Please re-read Nilbog's raid rules. Here let me go ahead and provide them to you. The rules absolutely stipulate you are to respect the raid. That means staying out the way and not interfering until the timer is up. That didn't happen.

You must respect other players and raid forces. If a raid force is at a raid target before you are than you are not allowed to engage that monster before they take a shot at it (Within 30 minutes). If that raid fails then you are free to take your shot and so on.

If a raid force is at the raid target and you begin gathering your own forces you are required to give the raid for that was there first a grace period of 30 minutes. Upon the arrival of your own raid force you must give them a 30 minute warning. If after 25 minutes they have not engaged the creature then you are free to give them a final 5 minute warning. After the 30 minutes are up you are free to engage the creature (Screenshots and logs of your attempted communication will be required).

The golems were technically the intended raid target since they are required to be killed within 50 minutes to kill CT. Using a rogue to instigate death touches over and over is a form of harassment to the guild going for said mobs. Secondly, it states you are not to engage the target the guild is going for. Instigating death touches from CT, the ultimate target we're speaking of here, is ENGAGING the target. Hence, a violation of the raid rules. If DA had done this I'd call BS also. I don't speak for DA or any other guild on this server. I just can't sit back and allow people to lie through their teeth without calling them out on their BS.

And I'm not touching Cyrius' post with a 10 foot pole. We're not allowed to question a GM decision apparently, regardless how much it defies logic. I've seen the evidence and it was more than conclusive. I'll leave it at that. He chose to ignore it for whatever reason. Probably for the same reasons he 100% GM resed Abacab after he purposely trained Tranix to royals, killing many people in the process.

[Bumamgar]

Loke: you can hold it without using your hands, what is it?

[Supreme]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Probably for the same reasons he 100% GM resed Abacab after he purposely trained Tranix to royals, killing many people in the process.

Or maybe he just does not like you?

[Humerox]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please re-read Nilbog's raid rules. Here let me go ahead and provide them to you. The rules absolutely stipulate you are to respect the raid. That means staying out the way and not interfering until the timer is up. That didn't happen.



The golems were technically the intended raid target since they are required to be killed within 50 minutes to kill CT. Using a rogue to instigate death touches over and over is a form of harassment to the guild going for said mobs. Secondly, it states you are not to engage the target the guild is going for. Instigating death touches from CT, the ultimate target we're speaking of here, is ENGAGING the target. Hence, a violation of the raid rules. If DA had done this I'd call BS also. I don't speak for DA or any other guild on this server. I just can't sit back and allow people to lie through their teeth without calling them out on their BS.

And I'm not touching Cyrius' post with a 10 foot pole. We're not allowed to question a GM decision apparently, regardless how much it defies logic. I've seen the evidence and it was more than conclusive. I'll leave it at that. He chose to ignore it for whatever reason. Probably for the same reasons he 100% GM resed Abacab after he purposely trained Tranix to royals, killing many people in the process.

Don't think I don't agree with you on this point, G. I do.

What I'm trying to say is these are the reasons guilds got together to clarify as many situations as they possibly could, in order to prevent asinine moves without GM intervention.

With the server rules, "disruptions" is ambiguous, and generalized. Don't think that every scrub around won't take advantage of it, because they have.

It was the entire reason guilds got together and tried to clarify the rules to begin with.

That's all I'm saying, lol.

[Loke]

Originally Posted by Bumamgar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Loke: you can hold it without using your hands, what is it?

Haha

[Humerox]

Respect is generalized and ambiguous I meant.