Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by Kich867 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I certainly don't think that, but again that has more to do with apathy. I think it has more to do with the phenomenon of when people are told they're wrong regardless of whether they are they get very defensive and agitated.

You don't actually need this dude to say he's wrong, and the insistence on turning your wheels to get them to say so is dumb and fruitless.

Most importantly though, I give exactly zero shits if DSM knows what they're talking about or not. I cannot describe to you how easy it is to look at someone who you think is wrong, know for certain you are correct about something, and not engage that person. You don't need their validation and you don't need to assert how correct you are, especially over something as fucking stupid as this.

You might say, "Kich, that's exactly what DSM is doing" -- and that's true, but it very clearly comes from a different place.

I think you're all still responding because you're more bothered that DSM said you're wrong than he would be bothered by being wrong. I think, demonstrably, the dude just likes talking on forums and debating things. And so this is an unbalanced conversation that you all could've avoided had you seen DSM disagree with you and you just go: "Yeah no that's fuckin crazy" and then not respond to the thread anymore.

Impartiality is always partial.

If you truly think this is waste of oxygen, why are you even here yourself? If we're all childish and crazy somehow, just let us be. I refuse to listen to this hypocritical speech about how I need to be the bigger man here.

Yeah, I do want him to admit he's wrong. You may think that's pointless, but I want sanity to flourish here. That's not going to happen if we go "shucks, what are you gonna do?!" and let him go off thinking he's in the right.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by Kich867 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What's everyone's boner with being civil all about? I'd be happy to engage with you in an uncivil discussion.

Why would you be happy to engage uncivilly, and why with me specifically? There are many posters you could do so with instead, and for some specific reason you chose to (I am still not clear what exactly? my best guesses are) discredit/embarrass/ridicule (or whatever you're trying to do) me, and particularly (seemingly) for simply stating facts and asking questions in a manner similar to that which DSM has done literally thousands more times than I have? Any particular reason? Is he your friend/guildy/alt or something hehe? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Kich867 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You were being fuckin dumb in that other thread and you never had much of an argument. Your facts were pointless because the entire conversation was unbelievably stupid between the both of you.

I was being dumb in that thread why exactly? Just because you say so?
I have already explained/stated factually to you that I did not ever have an "argument", so I am not sure what point you believe you are making by talking about "my argument" again hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So would I be correct in stating that your posts are intended to convey that you believe that MY facts/posts (mine specifically) in that other thread were pointless (enough for you to point out here in this thread), yet other posts - such as the ones of DSM's that I was directly responding/replying to - were not? If that is not what you are trying to say, would you possibly be able to further explain/extrapolate what are you trying to say exactly, and shed light on why are you saying it specifically to me?

Originally Posted by Kich867 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Being endlessly rustled by some nerd on the internet isn't healthy. You're (probably) an adult, get a grip on your life and your self esteem, this dude's validation isn't fuckin worth it pal.

You don't need it.

I do not know why your posts seem to indicate you believe that you have some knowledge of when other people have boners or get "rustled", but believing that - if you do belive it, as your posts would seem to indicate - does not make it true.

I am an adult and I have great self esteem. I do not know why your post seems to imply that you have some reason to believe otherwise hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I do not care about what you believe is or is not valid or what you believe is worth validation, but as I have stated above, I am curious the reasoning for your choice to direct your posts toward me in this manner. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

let him go off thinking he's in the right.

On one hand I agree with you but I think we can safely conclude that there is no reasoning with this person. Whether he has actual mental illness of some kind or is just extremely stubborn and misinformed. I'm not sure it matters much either way. Nobody is getting through to him. You could write a 10 page essay with absolutely perfect data points and sources that proves the exact opposite of his claims and he'd find a way to double down on his wrong opinion and walk away acting like he's in the right. I think that's why many people have kinda devolved into memes and trolling because it's quite obvious no rational discussion can penetrate that smooth brain.

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[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

On one hand I agree with you but I think we can safely conclude that there is no reasoning with this person. Whether he has actual mental illness of some kind or is just extremely stubborn and misinformed. I'm not sure it matters much either way. Nobody is getting through to him. You could write a 10 page essay with absolutely perfect data points and sources that proves the exact opposite of his claims and he'd find a way to double down on his wrong opinion and walk away acting like he's in the right. I think that's why many people have kinda devolved into memes and trolling because it's quite obvious no rational discussion can penetrate that smooth brain.

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It enrages me when someone goes off thinking they're in the right, I guess.

I suppose this issue isn't important enough to warrant such zeal, but I think this man has gotten under everyone's skin in such a way because of how stubbornly adamant he is in proving how shaman is the be all and end all of EverQuest.

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It enrages me when someone goes off thinking they're in the right, I guess.

I suppose this issue isn't important enough to warrant such zeal, but I think this man has gotten under everyone's skin in such a way because of how stubbornly adamant he is in proving how shaman is the be all and end all of EverQuest.

Trust me I hear ya. It bothers me too. I just don't think there's any end in sight. I'm just here for the luls now.

[Karanis]

LOLE.jpg

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The trolls are still here posting to each other? I guess they need to be consoled after losing so thoroughly.

Troxx, PlsNoBan, Cyxthryth, Toxigen, Ripqozko, Karanis, and Gloomlord have at least 500 posts combined that are literally just insults and/or memes with absolutely nothing to do with the topic. At least they are starting to admit they are trolling flat out. That is helpful. I wouldn't recommend listening to anything they have to say in this thread, it is not objective.

Reposting an overview of the discussion. This is the data given, so it is all we can use. It would be great if someone else posted some data.

============================Mage DPS===================================

This data is reportedly from a group Troxx had in Sebilis Crypt:

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According to Troxx, his pet is buffed with Burnout IV, and it is a level 60 Water Pet Unfocused. Pet level is guessed at 1 level under max, since a few parses show the max hit of 58.

Average pet DPS: (36 + 50 + 45 + 51 + 30 + 49 + 56 + 60 + 55) / 9 = 48 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick sitting and 12 mana per tick standing. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana. Let's assume the Mage has Conjuration Specialization. This reduces the cost to 248. Since the Mage will most likely lose 1 meditation tick due to the 6 second cast time, the mana cost goes back up to 268, to account for the 20 mana lost from not meditating. This means you can cast Shock of Steel 80 times per hour, assuming that is the only thing you do.

Troxx's average casts per individual fight: (5 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 8) / 9 = 5. To pull this off, that means he is spending 1340 - 290 (9 med ticks + 1 standing tick) = 1050 mana per encounter. After 3 encounters he would be out of mana, so there is no way he can sustain the DPS numbers provided. This is why we use the average of 1 nuke per minute, as it is not realistic to be nuking at a high DPS consistently. 74.22 is also close to the overall encounter of 80 DPS, so there is no reason to doubt the individual sets vs. the whole set.

Average player DPS without clickies: (825 damage x 80 nukes) / 3600 seconds = 18.33 DPS.

Using a https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem , which is a level 49 Sebilis mob and similar to Crypt mobs, an unslowed mob did 74 hits in 144 seconds. (74 x 33) / 144 = 16.95 DPS

Average Damage Shield DPS: 16.95 DPS.

Average Total DPS without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 16.95 = 83.28 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 35.29 + 16.95 = 100.24 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 24.66 + 16.95 = 89.61 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 11.45 = 77.78 DPS
The Direct damage number is lower because you would realistically only be able to nuke once per minute due to mana, so ((825 * 0.5) / 36) = 11.45 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 16.66 + 16.95 = 81.61 DPS
The DPS is halved on this due to it being difficult to realistically get two 17 second casts off in 36 seconds.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 18.5 + 16.95 = 83.45 DPS

============================Shaman DPS===================================

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg - Pet DPS video, logs are attached in description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Shaman Torpor Mana Recovery Video.

Pet DPS is using a max level pet with Celerity (50% haste), Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Average pet DPS: 7321 damage over 414 seconds = 17.7 DPS

A Shaman with max Torpor and Clarity II is regenerating mana at rougly 16 mana per second. Let's assume this Shaman has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (16 x 3600) + 3000 = 60600.

Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt cost 745 mana total. This means you could cast this combination 81 a maximum of times per hour. You would not be using Conjuraton Specialization typically, so the number doesn't change.

Average player DPS without clickies (Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt): ((1648 + 1278) x 60) / 3600 seconds = 48.76 DPS.

Average Total DPS without clickies: 17.7 + 48.76 = 66.46 DPS

Average Total DPS with JBB: 17.7 + 32.88 = 50.58 DPS

Average Total DPS with 1 Epic Click + 1x Pox + 2x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 63 = 80.7 DPS

Average Total DPS with 2x Epic Click + 2x Bane of Nife (on 2 mobs): 17.7 + 68.3 = 86 DPS
I will not use this for the differences in DPS below, since everything else is single target DPS.

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies (2x Ice Strike): 17.7 + 37.5 = 55.2 DPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E - Shaman Quick DPS video, logs are attached in description.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with JBB: 17.7 + 29.22 = 46.92 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with 1x JBB and 1x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 35.25 = 52.95 DPS
This would be a bit more mana efficient than 2x Ice Strikes, could do more DPS if the mob takes longer to kill, and is the same cast time as 2x Ice Strikes.

============================Difference in DPS===================================

Average Total DPS difference without clickies: 83.28 DPS (Mage) - 66.46 DPS (Shaman) = 26.82 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies: 100.24 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 19.54 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference without clickies: 77.78 DPS (Mage) - 55.2 DPS (Shaman) = 22.58 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference with best clickies: 83.45 DPS - 52.95 DPS = 30.5 DPS

Difference is between 19.54 DPS and 30.5 DPS, depending on the setup of the Mage vs. the Shaman, and killspeed.

============================Conclusion============ =======================

The reason for this breakdown is because the debate is choosing between Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric or Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric for OP's question. The argument for Mage is DPS + Malo + Charm Break Safety.

A Shaman has both Charm Break Safety (Pet + Torpor) and a better Malo -> Malosini chance, due to Malo being better than Mala. When looking at DPS, you can see that you will only lose 20-30 DPS when picking a Shaman over a Mage. Using Troxx's Data, you can see that two charmed level 47 mobs with a Torch and Haste would do 86x2 = 172 DPS. This means you are looking at a difference between 255 DPS and 225 DPS. When killing a mob with 8000 HP, the difference would be 31 seconds vs. 36 seconds. The Mage is only saving 5 seconds per kill, and offers very little else. A Shaman's toolkit on the other hand has a much broader application, and will save your group time in other less quantifiable ways. I see very little reason to pick a Mage over a Shaman.

The other debate that spawned was whether to take a Shaman or not based on them being less useful at low levels. It is true Shamans don't come into their own until level 30 or so, but this is true for Enchanters and clerics too. https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...postcount=1273 This post shows a level 24 warrior out-DPSing a level 27 charmed pet with 37% haste and a Torch. Enchanter charm isn't as powerful as people think at lower levels, plus Enchanters have to deal with more meditating, lower mana pool, more fizzles, more interrupts, resists, etc. The 2x Enchanters in this group aren't going to be as good as melees with 2k worth of gear. The cleric is also going to bring fairly little to the table. This shouldn't deter you from bringing these classes, as they are well worth the wait once you get to level 30 or so. Luckily leveling from 1-30 is going to be super easy with any group of 4, so this shouldn't be a big consideration.

Finally, this debate is looking at all level ranges, from 1-60, including level 60 item farming. It is up to the user to decide whether they want to pick a Mage for slightly faster kill speeds from levels 1-60 and during level 60 farming, or pick a Shaman for their superior utility and safety. This is very useful when farming level 60 camps like Fungi King and Ixiblat Fer. Honestly a group of 4 casters is already going to level extremely quickly, so I do not believe the Mage is worth it. A slightly better leveling experience does not make up for a Mage bringing very little at the end. OP has already chosen his group (Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Mage), so it is actually a draw hehe. I personally would do Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Cleric.

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

just shut the fuck up already jesus christ

[PlsNoBan]

Here's a real (shorter) overview for people with brains that work correctly: Mages are unquestionably a better choice in 99% of cases for a DPS class in a group setting if shaman heals/utility isn't vital. Enchanters lvl 12+ solo better than warriors without major twinking. A parse of a twinked warrior outdpsing a charmed pet means nothing and the parse itself is questionable at best. Without fungi the warrior has a fair bit of inevitable downtime and a well played enchanter has minimal. A point that has been brought up 5 or 6 times and repeatedly been ignored/dismissed in favor of posting more badly done parses. Even with major twinking somewhere around 30-40 they're still going to wipe the floor with warrior solo ability. OP picked a non min/max group comp and their choice (while totally fine) does not have any bearing on what the best setup is. If OP picked 4 rangers it doesn't magically make it the right answer. DSM's logic is extremely flawed and tends to be biased in favor of whatever argument he's trying to make at the time. Likely has a mental disorder of some kind. Actually believes there's a huge audience of silent readers of this thread that are learning valuable information from his over 500 posts in this thread while he mocks 7 other posters for having 500 combined.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's a real (shorter) overview for people with brains that work correctly: Mages are unquestionably a better choice in 99% of cases for a DPS class in a group setting if shaman heals/utility isn't vital. Enchanters lvl 12+ solo better than warriors without major twinking. A parse of a twinked warrior outdpsing a charmed pet means nothing and the parse itself is questionable at best. Without fungi the warrior has a fair bit of inevitable downtime and a well played enchanter has minimal. A point that has been brought up 5 or 6 times and repeatedly been ignored/dismissed in favor of posting more badly done parses. Even with major twinking somewhere around 30-40 they're still going to wipe the floor with warrior solo ability. OP picked a non min/max group comp and their choice (while totally fine) does not have any bearing on what the best setup is. If OP picked 4 rangers it doesn't magically make it the right answer. DSM's logic is extremely flawed and tends to be biased in favor of whatever argument he's trying to make at the time. Likely has a mental disorder of some kind. Actually believes there's a huge audience of silent readers of this thread that are learning valuable information from his over 500 posts in this thread while he mocks 7 other posters for having 500 combined.

No evidence to support any of these claims in the entire thread. Lot's of trolling though, which you have admitted to. Sorry you think "I am right and you are wrong" is a valid argument.