Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Keebz]

The mage has a pet that can tank shit when charms get broken so you don't wipe. The shaman dog is like lvl 39 and torpor is both too slow and problematic on a summoned player. The only argument for shaman is, "you need torpor for x, because y". Feel free to make that argument, but there is no other added utility when you have 2 ench and a cleric. Mages have rods, coth, and DS, which is actual utility the ench/cleric don't provide.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Keebz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The mage has a pet that can tank shit when charms get broken so you don't wipe. The shaman dog is like lvl 39 and torpor is both too slow and problematic on a summoned player. The only argument for shaman is, "you need torpor for x, because y". Feel free to make that argument, but there is no other added utility when you have 2 ench and a cleric. Mages have rods, coth, and DS, which is actual utility the ench/cleric don't provide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY - The Shaman pet can tank a Cliff Golem just fine, which is going to be a harder mob than anything you are chain pulling. With FoS the Shaman pet has close to 2500 HP. The Shaman can also tank, so the pet tanking argument doesn't work.

Shamans have Malo, which is better than Mala.

CoTH is rarely used in group settings. Most of the time you would need to have your Mage already set up somewhere, unless you are doing something like Chardok Royals. In a static 4 man if you wanted to stay at Juggs, everybody would just stay camped in Juggs. You wouldn't leave your Mage friend behind and play with the other 3 players.

Shamans save tons of mana because they can cast things like slows, heals, etc. This means the Cleric and Enchanters don't have to. That easily covers Mod Rods, which damage the player and require the Mage to spend mana on them.

Damage Shield is only 4-16 DPS roughly, depending on if the mob is slowed. That's not a lot of DPS. Remember than Enchanters also have a DS, so really the Mage is only increasing your DS DPS by 66%. In reality the Mage is only adding 2.5-10 DPS when taking that into account.

Finally, if you want to use the "players are playing perfectly" argument, then a Shaman can perfectly root/rot mobs, which is the same DPS output as a Mage. You can't have it both ways. You can't say a group is playing perfectly, but the Shaman can't root/rot in a scenario where the group is chain pulling easy mobs and playing perfectly.

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't say a group is playing perfectly, but the Shaman can't root/rot in a scenario where the group is chain pulling easy mobs and playing perfectly.

You can though. Because root rotting mobs in a group is retarded.

[Keebz]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY - The Shaman pet can tank a Cliff Golem just fine, which is going to be a harder mob than anything you are chain pulling. With FoS the Shaman pet has close to 2500 HP. The Shaman can also tank, so the pet tanking argument doesn't work.

In this theoretical group, shit like cliff golems and WW dragons are child's play so they are completely irrelevant. Trivial shit you can solo as a shaman isn't what we're talking about here.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shamans have Malo, which is better than Mala.

It is slightly better (35 vs 45), but clearly not enough to justify the class.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

CoTH is rarely used in group settings.

CoTH is extremely useful for pulling things. It is frankly broken. You just don't know about it apparently.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shamans save tons of mana because they can cast things like slows, heals, etc. This means the Cleric and Enchanters don't have to. That easily covers Mod Rods, which damage the player and require the Mage to spend mana on them.

Saving some mana on slows and the occasional spot heal is irrelevant. Aside from the initial slow, the enchanters shouldn't be doing much and the cleric has spot heals covered. Mod rods get made ahead of time and cycled. Everyone will be at full mana for whatever fight you want.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Damage Shield is only 4-16 DPS roughly

Depends on the mob, once again, killing easy targets is not the plan.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Finally, if you want to use the "players are playing perfectly" argument, then a Shaman can perfectly root/rot mobs

No one is root rotting anything. You gotta stop with this idea you're farming gems in seb or something, because that's super trivial.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Keebz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No one is root rotting anything. You gotta stop with this idea you're farming gems in seb or something, because that's super trivial.

Bring that up with the people using Sebilis trash as the primary thrust of this thread's discussion[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] That wasn't my idea. Troxx brought Sebilis Crypt Trash as his data. Basically the pro-Mage team has been trying to diminish a Shaman's capabilities by forcing the conversation along the narrow line that the group is going to be constantly chain pulling trash mobs. If you want to break out of that discussion, then a Shaman's usefulness increases. I wouldn't mind going there at all.

Originally Posted by Keebz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In this theoretical group, shit like cliff golems and WW dragons are child's play so they are completely irrelevant. Trivial shit you can solo as a shaman isn't what we're talking about here.

Then you need to specify what you are talking about so we can run the numbers. The majority of this thread has been about chain pulling mobs you can kill in 30 seconds, which isn't mobs like Cliff Golems. A group with 2x Enchanters and a Mage would be doing around 270 DPS (170 from Enchanters, 100 DPS from Mage), which means you are killing a Cliff Golem in 30000 / 250 = 110 seconds. That is not a 30 second chain pulled mob.

At that length a Shaman can fully dot the Cliff Golem with Epic, Pox, and 2x Bane of Nife's for 62 DPS + 17.7 Pet DPS = 79.7 DPS. This doesn't including using JBB if you don't need to recover mana during the fight. The Shaman is also better at slowing the mob due to Malo. This is a fight where the Shaman would shine compared to a Mage, and you are only losing 20 DPS, which would save you a paltry 10 seconds on kill time. You would lose less DPS if the Shaman was JBB spamming after applying DoTs.

Originally Posted by Keebz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is slightly better (35 vs 45), but clearly not enough to justify the class.

If the pet can tank a Cliff Golem, it can tank anything you can chain pull and kill in 30 seconds, which is what we were discussing.

Originally Posted by Keebz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

CoTH is extremely useful for pulling things. It is frankly broken. You just don't know about it apparently.

I do know about about it. Why do you think I mentioned Chardok Royals? But it isn't necessary for most pulls that a 4 man group will do, especially for the chain pulling discussion.

Originally Posted by Keebz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Saving some mana on slows and the occasional spot heal is irrelevant. Aside from the initial slow, the enchanters shouldn't be doing much and the cleric has spot heals covered. Mod rods get made ahead of time and cycled. Everyone will be at full mana for whatever fight you want.

Mod Rods are lore, so your group would need to be managing them by dropping them and picking them up. It's a lot of work, especially if you are moving a lot, and not going to save that much mana. The Shaman is easily keeping up with that. If the Mage is constantly summoning Mod Rods, the Mage is losing DPS by not nuking as much due to spending mana and time on Mod Rods. You don't have a Necro in an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage group, so the Mage is only regenerating with meditate + C2.

Originally Posted by Keebz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Depends on the mob, once again, killing easy targets is not the plan.

A hard mob is going to be slowed, which means DS DPS is heavily diminished.

[PlsNoBan]

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[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let me show a simpler example.

Let's start out with a group that does 100 DPS.

When fighting a mob with 25000 HP, your group will kill the mob in 250 seconds.

If you doubled your DPS to 200, which isn't difficult, you will reduce the kill time to 125 seconds.

Doubling your DPS again to 400 would be much harder, and would reduce the kill time to 62.5 seconds.

As you can see, you get diminishing returns on time saved when it comes to adding DPS to your group. Getting to 200 DPS in a four man group is easy. 2x Enchanters with charmed pets is already around 170 DPS with hasted level 47 mobs. The other two members will easily get your group to the 200 DPS mark.

The only way to increase your DPS to 400 would be to bring 4x Enchanters, which most people agree is too risky. The additional 2 Enchanters are only saving half the time of the first 2 Enchanters (62 seconds vs. 125 seconds), while significantly increasing the risk of your group dying.

[PlsNoBan]

Would you rather have 1 extra DPS in your group or a second healer with nothing to heal? This is an easy fucking question DSM. I know you aren't too bright but I think you can figure this one out. A cleric isn't struggling to keep 2 decent/good enchanters alive. They don't need your help no matter how hard you want that to be the case.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would you rather have 1 extra DPS in your group or a second healer with nothing to heal? This is an easy fucking question DSM. I know you aren't too bright but I think you can figure this one out. A cleric isn't struggling to keep 2 decent/good enchanters alive. They don't need your help no matter how hard you want that to be the case.

I would rather have a second healer any day of the week. The benefits you are getting from being able to heal two people at the same time is much better than 1 DPS. There is always the possibility of an emergency, even with highly experienced players. Shamans can do more than just healing though, so the benefits are even greater.

[Keebz]

I've consistently been talking about high end targets. The goal of the composition should be to increase the ceiling of what is possible. I don't see you making an argument for shaman lifting the ceiling anywhere.