Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Once again more dps (50% more) is more useful than redundant extra heals and utility that are already covered. I agree with you more dps in a 2 charm group isn't a HUGE benefit. But it's much more beneficial than less dps and unnecessary heals/utility. Sorry this is such a hard concept for you to grasp. Maybe you'll get there someday.

Thank you for agreeing with me on that point. Hopefully you will realize heals/utility have benefits to this party too. Keeping the Clerics/Enchanters focused on dealing with the pets is a benefit, since the Shaman can handle healing, slowing, etc. when necessary in any situation, and they can help stabilize an emergency better than a Mage.

From my experience groups make mistakes and wipe, even groups with highly experienced players. I would rather prevent the wipe than save a tiny bit of time on each kill. Wipes often times are group killers. If your group has been going for 3 hours and then wipe, you often times will end the session earlier than if you didn't. That's why the benefits of a Shaman are harder to quantify, because it depends on the players. But again, I have seen wipes end a party much more often than slightly slower kill speed. If you never wipe, you tend to play longer. Often times that evens out the time saved per kill, or ends up being better, depending on how much longer the session lasts.

[PlsNoBan]

So you've fallen back on "Shaman is better cause players might be bad"? That's probably the best argument you've ever made. However as has been stated many times we're assuming the players are good in this hypothetical situation. If we assume bad players then all bets are off and the shaman could also be bad and more detriment to the group than helpful. Like if he/she decided they wanted to pull a bunch of extra mobs to root rot for extra DPS then loses control of them.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So you've fallen back on "Shaman is better cause players might be bad"? That's probably the best argument you've ever made. However as has been stated many times we're assuming the players are good in this hypothetical situation. If we assume bad players then all bets are off and the shaman could also be bad and more detriment to the group than helpful. Like if he/she decided they wanted to pull a bunch of extra mobs to root rot for extra DPS then loses control of them.

I didn't say the players were bad. I am assuming the players are good in this situation.

I also didn't fall back on anything. What I said in my previous post has been part of my argument the entire time. The conversation has been more focused on DPS, that is the only reason why I haven't expanded on this part of my argument as often. But you can see me making this argument plenty of times in my earlier posts.

Even the best guilds wipe on raid bosses. Highly skilled players still make mistakes, or just get unlucky via RNG, lag, etc. I have never seen a player/group be perfect all the time. It just doesn't happen. This is why most people aren't claiming 4x Enchanters is the best group comp for OP's question. Technically that group doesn't need healing if played perfectly. In reality it does need healing because mistakes happen, or you get unlucky. That is one downside with playing an RNG game. You can just get really unlucky, and it's harder for skill to save you in those cases.

[PlsNoBan]

The cleric is there for when "mistakes happen" with the enchanters. A shaman in this situation is redundant as has been mentioned many times now. Do you understand what redundant means? Using that logic you should just fill the entire group with clerics just in case. It's less likely to cause a wipe with 3 clerics than 1 right? The cleric unlike a shaman can also rez if someone dies (including one of the other clerics). If DPS is truly unimportant why wouldn't you bring more heal power and an extra rez? Or better yet bring a necro instead who can heal in a pinch and rez and mez and do more damage?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The cleric is there for when "mistakes happen" with the enchanters. A shaman in this situation is redundant as has been mentioned many times now. Do you understand what redundant means? Using that logic you should just fill the entire group with clerics just in case. It's less likely to cause a wipe with 3 clerics than 1 right? The cleric unlike a shaman can also rez if someone dies (including one of the other clerics). If DPS is truly unimportant why wouldn't you bring more heal power and an extra rez? Or better yet bring a necro instead who can heal in a pinch and rez and mez and do more damage?

I do understand what redundant means. You are only using it for Shamans though, and not the Mage. The Mage's DPS is also redundant, as you have admitted.

You are also taking my argument to the extreme by arguing for 4 clerics. That wouldn't work since you couldn't kill fast enough, which increases risk.

Basically there are two camps of thought here. You are the type of person who prefers higher risk, higher speed groups. I prefer more consistent groups. From my experience the higher risk higher speed groups tend to end up farther behind than the consistent groups. The higher risk, higher speed groups don't think so because it feels good when you are playing well, and you forget when you wipe or play bad.

The reason why Shaman wins here is because having a broader toolkit means your group can do more things. A third Enchanter, a Mage, or a Shaman are all redundant in a group with 2x Enchanters and a Cleric. The question is simply which redundancy you prefer. I prefer the redundancy that expands what the group can do, while reducing wipe chances. Consistency + better coverage of camps is a more powerful combination than simply slightly faster kill speeds.

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The Mage's DPS is also redundant

DPS is never redundant. This is why I think you don't understand the word. DPS can be stacked infinitely. Healing/slows.etc do not stack if there's no hp to heal and the mob is already slowed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can though. Because root rotting mobs in a group is retarded.

Your preferences are irrelevant to the facts. If your group cares about DPS, they will maximize their DPS. Otherwise your group doesn't care as much about DPS.

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DPS is never redundant. This is why I think you don't understand the word. DPS can be stacked infinitely. Healing/slows.etc do not stack if there's no hp to heal and the mob is already slowed.

You can heal multiple people at the same time with more healers, which is a benefit. There can be multiple people/pets damaged at the same time.

DPS loses efficiency as you stack more, because it gets harder and harder to significantly increase your DPS with a fixed setup like a four man group. Also, all of the content a four man group can kill doesn't have a ton of HP to begin with. DPS also loses efficiency when the mob has less HP, because the amount of time you save per kill is smaller. The difference in kill speed on a mob with 8000 HP is only about 5 seconds when comparing 222 DPS to 192 DPS.

It takes 9 minutes at 35 DPS to get a WW Dragon down to 20% - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Pro4F0B0I .

If your group does 150 DPS, it will take 165 seconds to kill the mob (24750 / 150) = 165 seconds.

If your group does 180 DPS, it will take 138 seconds to kill the mob (24750 / 180) = 138 seconds.

As you can see, you are only saving 27 seconds by adding the extra 30 DPS on a fight that is already less than 3 minutes. Most of the time that is not going to matter when fighting harder mobs like WW Dragons due to respawn times and the number of available WW Dragons. It's better to ensure the kill by increasing safety instead of saving a few seconds on the kill. Losing the mob to other groups, or spending time recovering is going to be much worse than the benefit of killing the mob 27 seconds faster.

[Chortles Snortles]

guys just join bad groups all the time and you’ll see the awesome power of shaman
(LOL)

[PlsNoBan]

It's true that a good shaman can do a lot to carry a bad group and correct a lot of mistakes. A group of 2+ encs and a cleric that are good at the game have almost no use for a shaman whatsoever outside of their mediocre dps.

[Ripqozko]

39 more pages of DSM non sense to hit 200, we almost there boys.