Shamwowi's Shaman Race Guide

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You keep moving the goal posts. In your previous posts you said "scenarios", and you did not specify what kind.

If your definition of "scenarios" is end game Velious content, you are shooting yourself in the foot. All racial bonuses become "quality of life" features when you are in a group or a raid dealing with end game Velious content. Again your argument goes back to the extreme position of "there is no best race", which is false. Any asymmetrical game has a best. I have never claimed the "best" is far ahead, but that doesn't mean it does not exist.

"Best" in the PvE sense is any scenario which makes you more effective at defeating an enemy either directly or from a support perspective. Racial bonuses like regen contributes to this in the end game, having a lesser experience penalty does not.

Edit: I never said there is no best race for any given class, I'm saying there is no best race for every single class from a min max end game velious perspective.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Best" in the PvE sense is any scenario which makes you more effective at defeating an enemy either directly or from a support perspective. Racial bonuses like regen contributes to this in the end game, having a lesser experience penalty does not.

Edit: I never said there is no best race for any given class, I'm saying there is no best race for every single class from a min max end game velious perspective.

Experience penalties do contribute to end game Velious content, because you need to keep level 60 to maintain optimal efficacy in PvE. Monks are a great example here. If you are a Monk that mostly Raids, you die a LOT. The 4% experience loss from resurrection adds up rather quickly, which means you need to go and get experience at some point to maintain your ability to raid. Human Monks can objectively spend more time raiding than Iksar Monks, because it takes them significantly less time to maintain level 60.

I disagree with your assessment that specific classes cannot have a best. Troll/Iksar Regeneration is actually the least useful on a Shaman anyway, because Shaman's have the best regenerative ability in the game out of the classes that Trolls/Iksars can be. An Ogre Shaman can Regenerate at 336 HP per tick (not including bard song). A Troll Shaman can Regenerate at 344 HP per tick. That is a difference of 2.5%. It really doesn't matter that much. Troll/Iksar regeneration is much more useful on a non-Shaman, because the difference between 34 and 42 is 19%, which is a much bigger ratio.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Experience penalties do contribute to end game Velious content, because you need to keep level 60 to maintain optimal efficacy in PvE. Monks are a great example here. If you are a Monk that mostly Raids, you die a LOT. The 4% experience loss from resurrection adds up rather quickly, which means you need to go and get experience at some point to maintain your ability to raid. Human Monks can objectively spend more time raiding than Iksar Monks, because it takes them significantly less time to maintain level 60.

I disagree with your assessment that specific classes cannot have a best. Troll/Iksar Regeneration is actually the least useful on a Shaman anyway, because Shaman's have the best regenerative ability in the game out of the classes that Trolls/Iksars can be. An Ogre Shaman can Regenerate at 336 HP per tick (not including bard song). A Troll Shaman can Regenerate at 344 HP per tick. That is a difference of 2.5%. It really doesn't matter that much. Troll/Iksar regeneration is much more useful on a non-Shaman, because the difference between 34 and 42 is 19%, which is a much bigger ratio.

Again, you're talking about quality of life here with your experience argument, having to xp less outside of raids, but there is still plenty of time to make up that xp penalty due to the limited amount of mobs we have on this server, and also in theory an iksar monk will die less [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. This doesn't give humans the edge in any actual "best" scenario.

Perfectly fine that you disagree, you're just weighing in on your opinion of racial effectiveness in any scenario, same as Danth just did. I just think it's rather naïve to claim you have somehow solved this debate mathematically by summarizing your opinions of each situation a shaman could encounter, when there are plenty of things in life with mathematical foundations that will never be solved. I also think your claim dilutes the guide you have created, which I can appreciate the research and a lot more people may have read if you would have presented it more as that instead of some end all to the shaman racial debate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, you're talking about quality of life here with your experience argument, having to xp less outside of raids, but there is still plenty of time to make up that xp penalty due to the limited amount of mobs we have on this server, and also in theory an iksar monk will die less [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. This doesn't give humans the edge in any actual "best" scenario.

Perfectly fine that you disagree, you're just weighing in on your opinion of racial effectiveness in any scenario, same as Danth just did. I just think it's rather naïve to claim you have somehow solved this debate mathematically by summarizing your opinions of each situation a shaman could encounter, when there are plenty of things in life with mathematical foundations that will never be solved.

Every racial becomes "quality of life" if your definition of "scenario" is end game Velious content[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] No racial is required or necessary for end game Velious content. So I am not sure where you are going with the "quality of life" debate. Racials are quite a boon in a plethora of "scenarios", but end game Velious content isn't one of them. That is why you see Human Warriors tanking AoW. They are not barred from tanking because they don't have FSI, which would objectively help in an AoW fight.

Racials are mostly beneficial in Solo/Duo situations, where having an edge can significantly increase your kill speed, and thus increase the rate at which you can experience or gain items. Once you get into group/raid situations, racials for the most part become useless.

It is not naive at all to use math and game examples, because video games are literally built on math and rules. They have a MUCH stricter set of outcomes than real life. That is why you cannot compare "real life" to "video games". The levels of complexity are nowhere close. The videos I show of my Shaman killing content can apply to almost all scenarios a Shaman will run into, barring some very specific fights.

Everquest is a fairly simple game, and Shamans are generally designed to fight a specific subset of content, namely single, hard targets. FSI gives you a bigger edge in those cases, because Troll/Iksar Regeneration is just too small of a bonus with Torpor to make a large difference. If you want to say "Troll Shamans are the best at farming Droga because Troll/Iksar Regeneration allows a Shaman to kill more easy mobs per hour", you would be correct, but I doubt most people make Torpor Shamans to farm Droga[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is what I mean by "best". Ogre is generally the best option due to FSI if you want to play a Shaman for their intended purpose. As I mention in my guide, if you do want to play your Shaman in a very specific way, there is a race for that. But that doesn't there cannot be a "best" race for the majority of players, and "normal" Shaman situations. By saying "no race is the best", you just confuse new players and make their starting choice more difficult. This is especially true when you can objectively verify which race is best, which I have been doing[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You do gloss over duo/group content at level 60 somewhat, though perhaps not unfairly. How do I mean? Let's put it this way: If some shaman with a partner kills a named as a duo within the ~6 minute duration of Turgur's then you're looking at a maximum of maybe 500 HP of extra healing from racial regeneration that the shaman wouldn't otherwise have, and in real world practice rather less than that. Troll or iksar is inarguably "better" in such a case than an ogre who isn't being hit but the victory rings rather hollow. Sure you could add those types of disclaimers to your guide but why would you want to do that when it's long enough already? After all it's a wiki article, not a book.

I still regard troll as the min-max choice for general use, but not because I disagree with any of your data. I rather like the data, actually. Rather I weigh some factors differently. For example I place more emphasis on the reality that the majority of characters created on P1999 never make it to level 60 at all. That is a difference of priority, not of fact. I see your side of it too, hence why I've said several times in this thread that I like your guide regardless of that type of differing opinion.

Danth

Thanks again Danth[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I of course agree with your assessment that Trolls are the best leveling Shaman, and that most people do not make it to level 60. My main argument against that idea is I have seen a lot of people who think that they will not level a character to 60, but end up doing so. In my opinion, the mindset for making a new character should be that you will make it to level 60. Then, it is easier to make a decision like "I know Trolls won't have as much of an edge as Ogres at 60 with Torpor, but I am fine with that, because I want to level faster". That is much better than "Oh shit, I got to 60 and found out I wanted x y z that another race actually has".

[kjs86z]

a whole lot of words for:

ogre for end game solo

barb/iksar for fashion

troll for everything else

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by kjs86z [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

a whole lot of words for:

ogre for end game solo

barb/iksar for fashion

troll for everything else

I agree lol. However, having a detailed debate is for people who disagree with statements this succinct. You cannot fight "Troll is the best!" with "Ogre is the best!". That ends up being very circular. Also, "troll for everything else" isn't really true, as FSI can still work quite well in group/raid situations. I think a better summary would be:

"Ogre for end game solo.

Barbarian for fashion and guild bots.

Iksar for being the least common shaman race (fashion and cool points).

Troll for the best solo/duo leveling experience."

EDIT: This is again why I rate Ogres the best. One of the most enticing factors to consider when rolling a Shaman is their ability to do well in all scenarios: Soloing, Duoing, Grouping, and Raiding. This flexibility means most people should ensure their solo capabilities are at peak performance, because Shamans already do very well in all scenarios. However, soloing is still the most challenging of these scenarios, because Shamans have a much harder time dealing with multiple mobs simultaneously. Having even one extra person playing with you increases a Shaman's capabilities by a large margin, including their ability to deal with multiple mobs.

This is why Trolls/Ogres are always at the top of the list. Trolls have the best solo capability Pre-Torpor, while Ogres have the best solo capability Post-Torpor. This is why Iksars are generally rated the worst, because Jaundiced Bone Bracer is a very important soloing tool. It is very useful Pre-Torpor when you are trying to reach level 60, and it can still be used effectively Post-Torpor. When it comes to the Diety Necklaces, they are good leveling tools, but lose a lot of efficacy once you get to 60 and acquire Torpor. I honestly wish the Innoruuk Necklace had a better snare, or there were high priority targets to use the Cazic Thule Necklaces on. That would actually give Shamans some ways to break the mold of their class restrictions, and make the racial debate more spicy.

[Gustoo]

Yep good thread all.

All the races are fine.

Ogres are the best
Barbarians are the best to be so you can be a human instead of a monster, and be not KOS in all the nice places.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I also think your claim dilutes the guide you have created, which I can appreciate the research and a lot more people may have read if you would have presented it more as that instead of some end all to the shaman racial debate.

Thank you! The goal of this guide is to try and be an end all to the debate. I believe a lot of confusion on this subject has been generated over the years precisely because quite a few people have this odd idea that video games (or Everquest specifically) are somehow not quantifiable in objective terms. I am not aiming this comment at you to specifically single you out, it is just an observation I have had after years of playing the game and reading the forums. If there are a lot of people out there who do not want to read my guide because they do not believe the racial debate is quantifiable, that is a problem of understanding video games on their part, not a problem with me or my guide. It really isn't that difficult to quantify the benefits of Troll/Iksar Regeneration. Regeneration is simply adding two values together every 6 seconds. That can be predicted with 100% certainty, assuming no crazy bugs occur. I haven't seen any tick related bugs in the many years I have played on this server, so it isn't like you can exploit the tick to give you a large increase in Regeneration, unless you try cheating. The ability to get an extra tick's worth of damage or regeneration on certain spells isn't a bug per-se, it is simply a necessary consequence of how they needed to limit data transfer back in the days of 56k modems.

As a programmer myself, I can tell you that games, while complex, are not some miraculous machine that can spontaneously generate a plethora unexpected events (like real life). Yes, complex games can give rise to interesting bugs (unexpected events), but they are still well within the bounds of video games if you understand how they work. It isn't like Skynet will be born out of World of Warcraft. That is simply out of the bounds of the codebase's capabilities. Everquest overall is a very stable game, and the existing bugs or exploits have been VERY well documented and defined. A Shamans capabilities are strictly defined, as are the mechanics of the game. Unless you are cheating, it is very easy to find the limitations of a Shaman. If you watch my videos, the strategies employed in them are the primary methods of playing a Shaman. I am not saying people do not play differently, or cannot play differently. I am not trying to FORCE people to play in a specific way. The simple reality is games have classes because those classes are designed to be played in a specific way. This is why some classes can fear kite, for example, and others cannot. Of course you could play a Torpor Shaman without using Torpor and Cannibalize together. But I do not think most people would agree with that tactic, even though it could be done. They certainly wouldn't encourage other players to do so, and they wouldn't believe this suggestion is forcing people to play their way.

The idea here is to help people understand how a Shaman works, so they can use them correctly, and make the best decisions possible. If someone is knowledgeable enough to create a character for a very specific purpose or fight, they probably do not need my guide in the first place. For MOST people, they create a Shaman to play a Shaman in the "normal" way. That means there is a "best" race to accommodate the most common denominator of player. This is why I have a few different categories in my guide, to make sure people understand which race is best for which playstyle. The reason why the "overall best" Shaman race is the focus of the guide is because it is the most complex subject. Trolls automatically win the "best race while leveling" debate, so I don't really see a need to go very in depth on that part of the guide if someone doesn't think they will level to 60. It is the same thing with the "raid only" Shamans. That is honestly a minority of players, because one of the biggest draws of a Shaman is their soloing capabilities. Most "raid only" Shamans are bots to be honest.

[Gustoo]

Yes good guide. I suggest a less scary avatar picture yours reminds me of the dude from lexx that they put to sleep in a pod all the time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Gustoo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes good guide. I suggest a less scary avatar picture yours reminds me of the dude from lexx that they put to sleep in a pod all the time.

Lol thanks. I agree a new Avatar is probably necessary, I just haven't thought of something better. That picture has been my avatar for many years. It is the Doomguy from Doom 3 with a smiley face, but he cannot smile very well due to the limited number of lip bones he has, and my poor animation skills at the time.