worst class in classic

[RecondoJoe]

Originally Posted by Keebz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All these classes have floors and ceilings depending on the player. So the question is: do you rate based of the ceiling? the floor? Or the estimated competency of the average player?

If you go off ceiling, rogue/warrior are probably at the bottom. If you go off floor, it's probably ranger, wizard, rogue in some order, but all the hybrids are pretty awful if the player is bad.

Also, do you factor in the EXP penalty? If so it's all the hybrids. A bad Troll SK may be the worst, but a bad bard (one who just melees while playing 1 song) is also quite bad.

I can tell you as someone who plays multiple healers, I love having warriors in my group.
I routinely root mobs anyways, and aggro is essentially a non-issue. Rangers on the other hand I cannot stand having in my groups. I have had so many 5-man groups who were easily holding a camp and then they get the bright idea to invite a ranger and it wipes us because his constant aggro and inability to mitigate damage means I have to spam heals on him the entire time — and then I don’t have mana to heal the essential players.

Rogues have at least pulled my corpses on numerous occasions. I’ve yet to have a Ranger do anything other than get on my nerves.

Wizard is pretty shitty too. Imagine if Wizards couldn’t teleport to the Planes, they would essentially serve no purpose. My Cleric can solo camp stuff easier than most Wizards and that’s really sad.

[gundumbwing]

Originally Posted by RecondoJoe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can tell you as someone who plays multiple healers, I love having warriors in my group.
I routinely root mobs anyways, and aggro is essentially a non-issue. Rangers on the other hand I cannot stand having in my groups. I have had so many 5-man groups who were easily holding a camp and then they get the bright idea to invite a ranger and it wipes us because his constant aggro and inability to mitigate damage means I have to spam heals on him the entire time — and then I don’t have mana to heal the essential players.

Rogues have at least pulled my corpses on numerous occasions. I’ve yet to have a Ranger do anything other than get on my nerves.

Wizard is pretty shitty too. Imagine if Wizards couldn’t teleport to the Planes, they would essentially serve no purpose. My Cleric can solo camp stuff easier than most Wizards and that’s really sad.

Drugs.

[RecondoJoe]

Originally Posted by gundumbwing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Drugs.

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[Tethler]

Originally Posted by RecondoJoe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can tell you as someone who plays multiple healers, I love having warriors in my group.
I routinely root mobs anyways, and aggro is essentially a non-issue. Rangers on the other hand I cannot stand having in my groups. I have had so many 5-man groups who were easily holding a camp and then they get the bright idea to invite a ranger and it wipes us because his constant aggro and inability to mitigate damage means I have to spam heals on him the entire time — and then I don’t have mana to heal the essential players.

Rogues have at least pulled my corpses on numerous occasions. I’ve yet to have a Ranger do anything other than get on my nerves.

Wizard is pretty shitty too. Imagine if Wizards couldn’t teleport to the Planes, they would essentially serve no purpose. My Cleric can solo camp stuff easier than most Wizards and that’s really sad.

Sounds like you've grouped with some bad rangers. Too many of them don't utilize their toolkit fully. Rangers can actually tank fairly well in classic if they gear smartly. Geared in Fear armor, I only have like 40ac less than my guilds fear-geared SK tank. I tanked no problem in many groups while leveling up, and when there was a tank, I was pulling for the group or peeling adds off casters and rooting them, assisting monk pullers with harmony, etc.

A competent ranger can definitely pull their weight. It's the scrubs that just melee and occasionally snare mobs and do nothing else that aren't worth having.

[RecondoJoe]

Originally Posted by Tethler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sounds like you've grouped with some bad rangers. Too many of them don't utilize their toolkit fully. Rangers can actually tank fairly well in classic if they gear smartly. Geared in Fear armor, I only have like 40ac less than my guilds fear-geared SK tank. I tanked no problem in many groups while leveling up, and when there was a tank, I was pulling for the group or peeling adds off casters and rooting them, assisting monk pullers with harmony, etc.

A competent ranger can definitely pull their weight. It's the scrubs that just melee and occasionally snare mobs and do nothing else that aren't worth having.

I mean, it feels like the Rangers I group with are intentionally grabbing aggro, but I also have memories from 20 years ago about people complaining about the same thing. (Rangers getting aggro and dying). I've used Rangers tanks, but it feels like.... 30-35 is when they start to fall off. Like a Ranger trying to tank Kobold Royals seldom ends well, and it's frustrating when you have an actual tank in the group who takes almost no damage from tanking the same mobs, but he can't because the Ranger has aggro the entire time.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by RecondoJoe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean, it feels like the Rangers I group with are intentionally grabbing aggro, but I also have memories from 20 years ago about people complaining about the same thing. (Rangers getting aggro and dying). I've used Rangers tanks, but it feels like.... 30-35 is when they start to fall off. Like a Ranger trying to tank Kobold Royals seldom ends well, and it's frustrating when you have an actual tank in the group who takes almost no damage from tanking the same mobs, but he can't because the Ranger has aggro the entire time.

Sounds like just bad players who do not understand aggro.

Rangers tend to opt for low delay weapons like EBWs, we get a 14-delay rat whip in Hate, and we'll invariably go for 19-delay lammies or 18-delay lupine daggers/jade maces in Kunark (unless we go the Woodsman's Staff route), and then some wonder why they're rising up the hate list faster than the tank. This caused us issues in Kunark back on Live because our mitigation did not scale well after level 50, and taunt was broken for warriors for quite some time if I recall correctly. Pre-Kunark, a planar-geared ranger was pretty damn solid in Live if played well. Kunark era was peak squishiness for rangers and when we really started becoming the butt of jokes. The fix? The Jolt/Cinder Jolt spells for aggro management.

I've seen rangers tell me they're gonna camp for dual yaks. Or they leave their flux axe out during raids or while grouping without being the designated tank. Why? They're fixated on the DPS without fully understanding the consequences of the pain they're causing everyone else when aggro shifts off the tank. They've probably exhausted all of their mana using Call of Flame instead of saving it to heal themselves or root the mob so they can back off. Once the mob starts flipping towards them, they can always turn auto-attack off and let the tank build aggro again.

But rangers have some sort of inferiority complex (justified by the way they are shunned by min-maxers) and in my opinion incorrectly seek to justify their group invite with DPS at the risk of over-aggroing, instead of the utility they bring with their arsenal of tools.

[Lurgort/Sseri]

Originally Posted by RecondoJoe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can tell you as someone who plays multiple healers, I love having warriors in my group.
I routinely root mobs anyways, and aggro is essentially a non-issue. Rangers on the other hand I cannot stand having in my groups. I have had so many 5-man groups who were easily holding a camp and then they get the bright idea to invite a ranger and it wipes us because his constant aggro and inability to mitigate damage means I have to spam heals on him the entire time — and then I don’t have mana to heal the essential players.

Rogues have at least pulled my corpses on numerous occasions. I’ve yet to have a Ranger do anything other than get on my nerves.

Wizard is pretty shitty too. Imagine if Wizards couldn’t teleport to the Planes, they would essentially serve no purpose. My Cleric can solo camp stuff easier than most Wizards and that’s really sad.

Wizards are the 'oh shit, something went wrong' panic button. You can burn a couple things down fast, you can evac if some idiot from Efreeti trains you with a billion imps. It's definitely true they're average, but I've had no problem making friends and regularly grouping with mine. If Wizards were given the Clarity line instead of adding to an Enchanter's already impressive toolbox, It'd make more sense to have a purely mana-based DPS caster class.

Wizards can quadkite, root 'n nuke, and at earlier levels, shoot three 300 range bolts at a mob before it has a chance to deal damage.

[RecondoJoe]

Originally Posted by Lurgort/Sseri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wizards are the 'oh shit, something went wrong' panic button. You can burn a couple things down fast, you can evac if some idiot from Efreeti trains you with a billion imps. It's definitely true they're average, but I've had no problem making friends and regularly grouping with mine. If Wizards were given the Clarity line instead of adding to an Enchanter's already impressive toolbox, It'd make more sense to have a purely mana-based DPS caster class.

Wizards can quadkite, root 'n nuke, and at earlier levels, shoot three 300 range bolts at a mob before it has a chance to deal damage.

That's true, Wizards do actually fill a real role that's important. Ironically the only time anyone has ever evac'd me was in the exact same scenario you just described (usually people are scared to evac). The reason I say Wizards is bad is because the other INT casters feel insanely powerful due to the nature of their pets. Would probably be pretty awesome playing a Wizard at high level though. I doubt they have as much competition for loot in raids.

[Lurgort/Sseri]

Originally Posted by RecondoJoe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's true, Wizards do actually fill a real role that's important. Ironically the only time anyone has ever evac'd me was in the exact same scenario you just described (usually people are scared to evac). The reason I say Wizards is bad is because the other INT casters feel insanely powerful due to the nature of their pets. Would probably be pretty awesome playing a Wizard at high level though. I doubt they have as much competition for loot in raids.

Yeah, that's also another perk - low DKP for stuff while enjoying the class you play! Yes, Necros and Mages are far more superior in damagedealing, Mages get shittier in Kunark / Velious in terms of solo-ability, Necros get ridiculously good, and Wizard epic / quadkites become insanely good. Just check out the Pillar of Frost/Fire/Lightning line, efficient stuff.

Unrelated, but there was one encounter in CT where a Paladin decked out in full rubi and a Mith 2H said I should be the one pulling while I was keeping up Conflags on pulls for a good while because yes, I make a point to make friends with Enchanters, one grouped with me.

Dude called me a pussy and I just left the group, what a self-entitled prick.

Back on thread topic...hard to say, NEC/MAG/ENC are on an entirely different level compared to every other class in terms of soloing / damage dealing in Vanilla. Ranger or Rogue gets my pick.

[Danth]

I'd much rather have a Necromancer as the insurance class than a Wizard. With a Wizard if your group gets trained, he evacuates the group and under P1999 rules you've lost claim to whatever it was you were camping. In contrast the Necromancer gamely feigns out while the others die then he rezzes people (at least the cleric) back in, maintaining camp presence the entire time. Essence emeralds are cheap.

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If some guy keeps pulling unwanted aggro and running you (as the healer) out of mana, endangering the group, then your job is clear: Stop healing the twit until he either gets the memo or eats dirt.

Danth