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[fastboy21]

The only reason I "kind of" object for a half second is that you can currently get around the lack of hotbars by adding a few steps to the macro on your programmable keyboard/mouse without skipping a beat in terms of game play.

Most people probably won't do this --- but I thought the same thing when they took auto-stand out of casting. Folks found ways of getting around it with in-game macros and programmable keyboards...and it really is worth the time to set it up if you play EQ 20 hours per day.

Loramin and others are right though...this is a classic EQ mission. Its pretty hard to make any logical argument for a feature that isn't supposed to be in yet if there is a way to remove it unless you change the mission statement.

PS. Street Fighter 2 is one of the greatest icons of my childhood...how dare any of you heathen corrupt it with these fake characters. WTF is a Cammy!?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only reason I "kind of" object for a half second is that you can currently get around the lack of hotbars by adding a few steps to the macro on your programmable keyboard/mouse without skipping a beat in terms of game play.

Most people probably won't do this --- but I thought the same thing when they took auto-stand out of casting. Folks found ways of getting around it with in-game macros and programmable keyboards...and it really is worth the time to set it up if you play EQ 20 hours per day.

You can do it ... but if you get caught you'll get banned: is it worth it?

Originally Posted by Play Nice Policies

5. You may not use third-party programs on Project 1999.

The use of any third-party programs on Project 1999, including but not limited to, Macroquest/Macroquest2(MQ/MQ2), ShowEQ(SEQ), or any other program that interacts with the Everquest Titanium Client, is strictly prohibited. Use of any third-party programs will be detected and will result in the permanent banning of your account(s). No exceptions will be made, and once a ban has been enacted for violation of this rule it will not be reversed.

This includes programmable keyboards or other devices that creates multiple inputs for a single keystroke or automated task.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can do it ... but if you get caught you'll get banned: is it worth it?

Yes, exactly my point. I have quoted the same section when explaining this rule to others on the forums.

Implementing these changes are good, but if folks can just get around them with impunity by macro'ing the heck out of the game using 3rd party software then what's the point? It would only hinder the folks who choose to comply with it.

I know its horribly unpopular, but unless p99 is willing and able to enforce rules related to the (already against the rules) 3rd party software then what's the point?

There are some serious game exploits (not just skilling up tracking while afk) that folks can do with these programs if they know how to do them.

So far the standard has been 1) you need to be at the keyboard (don't run a macro and go to sleep) and 2) make sure whatever you are doing you could physically do if you were sitting at the computer playing.

Its a good approach to enforcing the spirit of the rule...but in ten years of the server I know of not a confirmed person suspended or banned for using such software...and while I wouldn't expect to know when they ban someone for what in 10 years I think I would have heard of at least one person. At best, it gives encouragement to folks that their odds of getting caught are slim to none --- at worst, folks just assume it is tacitly approved by the staff.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

but if folks can just get around them with impunity

I think that's exactly it: IF. But again, from the PnP:

Use of any third-party programs will be detected

Like any rule here (2-boxing, RMT, etc.) it's possible for people to break it, and even for people to break it and not get caught. But it's also very possible to get caught, and that threat deters most from breaking the rules.

For the remaining losers, we have our wonderful volunteer staff, and if said staff doesn't catch a cheater on their 1st or 2nd attempt ... well then the cheater will just keep doing it until they do get caught, perhaps on their 39th attempt. When they do, they'll lose that many more months of progress after their character gets banned [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Personally I don't lose much sleep over such people existing, I just trust that they'll get caught eventually. In the meantime, I can live with the tiny percentage that haven't been caught (yet): they certainly don't ruin my game.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But it's also very possible to get caught, and that threat deters most from breaking the rules.
In the meantime, I can live with the tiny percentage that haven't been caught (yet)

And this is where we disagree. There is zero evidence I am aware of that "most" have been deterred from breaking the rules or that only a "tiny percentage" haven't been caught yet.

If these statements were verifiable true then I would totally agree with you. My anecdotal experience is anything but this, however.

IMO, the majority of players are using these programs (allbeit that the majority stick to the guidelines in order to avoid attention and consequences), but they are using them for simple work arounds to the UI restrictions.

As for it not interfering with your game play that's a pretty low standard for enforcement.

The rogue that is using auto-backstab isn't going to ruin your game and you will probably never even notice...but it is a major change to the gameplay that is technically against the rules. Who suffers from this? The rogue that is compliant and lawful good to the p99 rules and therefore has to hit his backstab button all night and then wonders why his DPS is low compared to the other rogue in the group.

The other examples I totally agree: I know TONS of people who have been banned for RMT and Boxing. I don't know a single player ever suspended, banned, or even warned for running macros from a programmable keyboard unless they are blatantly absusive and AFK (I think I knew a mage in vanilla that got suspended for using a tab/attack macro to AFK level in mistmoore while sleeping --- and he probably would have been okay if he had set a text filter to alert him to the GM sending him tells to confirm if he was AFK).

[Albanwr]

there is no way you are getting punished for using keyboard macros. The software is installed for many other reasons other than using the macros. Never seen a reason to use them, but it's quite easy to do so if you need to.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Albanwr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

there is no way you are getting punished for using keyboard macros. The software is installed for many other reasons other than using the macros. Never seen a reason to use them, but it's quite easy to do so if you need to.

You and Fastboy are welcome to your opinion, but I think the staff have much better visibility on this than any of us do. The staff says it's both banned and that they monitor for it, so I choose to believe them ... and personally I'm not going to risk my account doing programmable keyboard stuff to test whether they're telling the truth or not.

I would (no sarcasm) love to see someone else do a test and report back [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You and Fastboy are welcome to your opinion, but I think the staff have much better visibility on this than any of us do. The staff says it's both banned and that they monitor for it, so I choose to believe them ... and personally I'm not going to risk my account doing programmable keyboard stuff to test whether they're telling the truth or not.

I would (no sarcasm) love to see someone else do a test and report back [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I totally agree. Only the staff know the data they've collected because it is generally kept secret (for good reasons).

If there is data that the staff has monitored that indicates that only a few folks abuse macro programs on a normal daily basis then everything I just said would be worthless.

I'm not sure that is the case. From a computers perspective it would be hard for them to do this without invasion of privacy (they could use their secret weapon .dll to look for these programs running while folks are playing EQ and flag those accounts) or without a high degree of false positives (since folks have legit reasons to have programmable keyboard software running on their computer without cheating). I have owned several RAZER keyboards/mice over my time on p99 and I have never turned them off while playing p99 --- I don't use them, but they are always running on my taskbar.

Of course I trust server staff to judge the significance of various exploits and deploy their limited resources in ways that give the best return for the project. I'm just providing a concern/player's perspective on it, which may or not be helpful to the staff.

I hope it goes without saying that we all "have a right to our opinion" --- not sure why it needs to be said, but I appreciate it (I think). All of us are operating on opinion without access to server data when it comes to these issues.

[feniin]

wait a tick.... people have programs to hit their backstab button? the one fucking button rogues have to press? don't people just smash that thing the entire fight? like 10x a second like any normal tweaker?

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by feniin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

wait a tick.... people have programs to hit their backstab button? the one fucking button rogues have to press? don't people just smash that thing the entire fight? like 10x a second like any normal tweaker?

its a pretty benign example, but the answer is 100% yes. Many rogues have programmed their backstab and their evade (attack off, evade, attack on) abilities. It significantly improves DPS over the course of a large sample...and is less work for the player. If you know how to do it also lets you text chat without interferring with the macro, so you can also socialize more while doing less work and doing more dps. It makes the game more fun in that regard --- so even a benign example can illustrate how a simple macro is really useful for EQ.

To be clear, I am in favor of the changes to the UI (classic hotbars)...it is a clearly good step in the mission of the project. It bothers me, however, that some folks will just get around it entirely with a simple macro while others will actually have to play according the intent of the rules.

Same thing with pet commands. My understanding is that pet commands can be text typed while casting. Removing the click button from the pet window working while casting is good...but what about the players that macro the text command? They just get around the restriction with a simple single button push. Seems like it only restricts the people that don't know about macro'ing or are compelled by their sense of obedience to the rules.