Women of Norrath, what's your experience?

[Zoolander]

I've met quite a few nice women here on this project

[Dirtnap]

I got like 15 pages in and didn't want to read any more.

Is it that surprising that the anonymity of the internet would have trolls be more aggressive in their trolling? That a troll would use any fuel they could get to be a successful troll? Gender is just an easy target.

You also have anti-social or the socially inept online. These people are going to say things that are just wacky. If someone can't talk to people in real life, they are going to be just as odd online.

I don't care what your gender is. Either play well, or get the fuck out.

Keep the drama out of guild chat and don't alienate other members.

[Ahldagor]

Originally Posted by Dirtnap [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I got like 15 pages in and didn't want to read any more.

Is it that surprising that the anonymity of the internet would have trolls be more aggressive in their trolling? That a troll would use any fuel they could get to be a successful troll? Gender is just an easy target.

You also have anti-social or the socially inept online. These people are going to say things that are just wacky. If someone can't talk to people in real life, they are going to be just as odd online.

I don't care what your gender is. Either play well, or get the fuck out.

Keep the drama out of guild chat and don't alienate other members.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Gadwen]

Fact of the matter is that vast majority of EQ players, male or female, are creepers.

[jaybone]

The problem is females suck ass at everquest.

[Mithan]

This thread makes me sad. Of course there will be people taking advantage of other people, of course there will be cheating, relationship breaking up, and drama. This is all pretty common things humans do, but blaming a gender for it is quite short sighted. There are many factors at play.

Fact is MMOs are predominantly male populated. Because of this, female player will get a lot more opportunities to engage in these behaviors, and statistically, will be involved in the drama more often than their male counterpart. That doesn't make it a gender specific thing.

Fact also is, humans crave intimacy. A lot of people who are either insecure, not confident enough, to enjoy the more traditional ways of finding intimacy (bar scene, clubs etc), will naturally revert to other hobbies, like MMOs, and seek relationships through these, behind the comfort of a screen and keyboard. it's all pretty normal and human. (I'm not saying all MMO players are insecure, I'm saying if you compare the populations of regular bar hoppers to regular MMO players, there will be a greater proportion of bar hoppers who are confident in, and enjoy, the flirting/dating game).

I've had my share of drama. I've gotten involved in romantic relationships with women in EQ back in the back in the days, twice.

The first girl I ended up figuring out was 'seeing' multiple guys and didn't have much interest in anything but casual, which is not what I was looking for. The fact that it was in an MMO, and physical contact because of the distance was infrequent, made it easier for her to be dishonest and hide her other relationships - but other than that, it could have happened anywhere else.

The 2nd girl I've been married to for 10 years, and we're happy as shit.

Please don't let your opinion of a gender get tainted because of appearances, you'll be the one suffering from it in the end.

As for females being bad at everquest, I'm just going to say... LOL. I've met kickass female player, average female players, and sucky one. Just like males.

[August]

My wife played WoW with me at a competitive level for 3 years. I was the guild leader for a well-known, highly-ranked horde US guild from classic (molten core) -> TBC (black temple / hyjal).

I gotta say that people's reaction to her being a woman was a huge obstacle for her, myself, and ultimately lead to her quitting the game.

Story time? Story time.

It started innocently enough. We were in a guild that was originally formed in WC3 that was the first guild to down Onyxia. Leader was an asshat, we reformed. That leader was an asshat, and then we reformed again. I was elected leader. I modeled the guild after the only successful guild I had been in to date - a guild on Veeshan server in EQ called Primus Exodus.

Around the second reform my wife (then just a girlfriend) had started to play to spend more time with me - we were doing a long distance thing, and in addition to nightly calls we could play the game together.

It was her first MMO and she ended up being very decent - she wasn't a pro player by any means, but she caught up quickly playing a warlock.

When she hit max level, i knew she could raid - I'd seen her play in all the dungeons up to raid, and we were critically short on warlocks. If you played during molten core, you would know how essential warlocks were in so many battles. I petitioned to let her move to from a 'casual' rank to a 'raider' rank. This is where things started their downward trend that would eventually culminate in me and my wife quitting the game.

At first it was just called out as blatant favoritism. "The guild leader's whore" - this was a term that people used. Mainly behind my back, but of course I would find out. We were on progression mobs which entailed many, many wipes. The overreaction to any wipe caused by her, in comparison to the multitude of wipes caused by a LOT of our raiding members, was out of this world. There would be disproportionate bitching and moaning anytime she got interrupted before a banish or heaven forbid she forget to cast soulstone.

It then rollercoastered into her being 'bad all the time'. This was really before the advent of DPS meters, and people would complain that she was doing her rotation wrong or not pulling her weight. This was actually a catalyst to make dps meters 'mandatory'. When doing so, we discovered something magical - of all the warlocks, she was typically the top dps. Hooray! Problem solved? Not even close.

After she had established her 'right to raid' - a feat that literally no one else was put through, she then had to deal with creepers. People would send her suggestive messages alllll the time. There was a group of people in guild that would make alts and ask her inappropriate questions. We had several people end up getting kicked out of our guild because of this ongoing behavior - people really seemed to have a problem with her, despite the fact that she rarely, if ever, talked in vent, always showed up, on time, to raids, and never caused any drama beyond the typical loot-drama that accompanies a DKP system.

When TBC came out we all leveled up and she decided to reroll into a new class. She had the alt, a shaman, already geared up from alt runs.

At the time, she was playing a very unpopular spec - the 'elemental shaman'. Those of you who might remember, there was a time when ele shamans only had 1 instant, no DoTs, and no way to cast while they moved. Blizzard has since rectified this issue, but the overarching complaint was that on movement based fights (read: all) ele shaman just couldn't keep up. Analysis showed them bottom of DPS, just below boomkins.

So we got to raiding shortly after TBC released, Karazhan, and that's when the shit storm blew up once again. Coming in at 6th place, even though she was off by maybe a half percent of total dmg from 5th, was a huge confidence killer. She was ridiculed for being 'bad' at her class. Melee shamans were way outperforming at this point, and her contribution was being downplayed. Never mind the fact that she was part of a group that was server first to clear Kara - that she played a class with tangible benefits to our caster dps -- that she had clutch instant heals when needed -- that she provided bloodlust and never fucked up -- her marginally less dps than the mage was enough for her to get tormented by members of our guild. It goes without saying that on times she raided with 'pugs' she was number 1 dps by a wide margin.

Convinced of her inability to play as a girl, people started openly bashing her whenever I wasn't online -- in guild chat, in private message, etc. When I logged on, it would magically stop.

Eventually we had to give up. She couldn't log on without me being on. It got to the point where I didn't want to log on, so she couldn't either. I ended up mailing the entirety of our guild bank to the next in command, and deguilded myself, and quit WoW.

In our entire raiding history, she was the only openly female raider in our guild. It was my experience that she was much more heavily scrutinized than others, excluded from a lot of activities, and usually accused of being the 'worst' player when I know for a fact she was far from it.

I'm 100% positive it was conflated with me being the guild leader. Back then, leader was a full-time job for me in addition to anything else I had going on. A 40 man raid meant at least 66 active raiders, constant recruitment, and tons of drama.

However, because of that situation, I can barely get my wife to play any online games with me now. She's always very self conscious bout playing - about 'messing up' despite my assurances that she does a great job.

She did play here for a bit, but ultimately quit because of some real life obligations. I asked her to come back and play with me but she said she was strapped on cash and needed to save up. I asked her how much and she replied to the tune of $3.50. Well about that time I realized she was an 8 story tall crustacean from the paleozoic era! I screamed 'Goddam loch ness monster! Get off my lawn!"

boy I was angry

[lecompte]

Originally Posted by August [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My wife played WoW with me at a competitive level for 3 years. I was the guild leader for a well-known, highly-ranked horde US guild from classic (molten core) -> TBC (black temple / hyjal).

I gotta say that people's reaction to her being a woman was a huge obstacle for her, myself, and ultimately lead to her quitting the game.

Story time? Story time.

It started innocently enough. We were in a guild that was originally formed in WC3 that was the first guild to down Onyxia. Leader was an asshat, we reformed. That leader was an asshat, and then we reformed again. I was elected leader. I modeled the guild after the only successful guild I had been in to date - a guild on Veeshan server in EQ called Primus Exodus.

Around the second reform my wife (then just a girlfriend) had started to play to spend more time with me - we were doing a long distance thing, and in addition to nightly calls we could play the game together.

It was her first MMO and she ended up being very decent - she wasn't a pro player by any means, but she caught up quickly playing a warlock.

When she hit max level, i knew she could raid - I'd seen her play in all the dungeons up to raid, and we were critically short on warlocks. If you played during molten core, you would know how essential warlocks were in so many battles. I petitioned to let her move to from a 'casual' rank to a 'raider' rank. This is where things started their downward trend that would eventually culminate in me and my wife quitting the game.

At first it was just called out as blatant favoritism. "The guild leader's whore" - this was a term that people used. Mainly behind my back, but of course I would find out. We were on progression mobs which entailed many, many wipes. The overreaction to any wipe caused by her, in comparison to the multitude of wipes caused by a LOT of our raiding members, was out of this world. There would be disproportionate bitching and moaning anytime she got interrupted before a banish or heaven forbid she forget to cast soulstone.

It then rollercoastered into her being 'bad all the time'. This was really before the advent of DPS meters, and people would complain that she was doing her rotation wrong or not pulling her weight. This was actually a catalyst to make dps meters 'mandatory'. When doing so, we discovered something magical - of all the warlocks, she was typically the top dps. Hooray! Problem solved? Not even close.

After she had established her 'right to raid' - a feat that literally no one else was put through, she then had to deal with creepers. People would send her suggestive messages alllll the time. There was a group of people in guild that would make alts and ask her inappropriate questions. We had several people end up getting kicked out of our guild because of this ongoing behavior - people really seemed to have a problem with her, despite the fact that she rarely, if ever, talked in vent, always showed up, on time, to raids, and never caused any drama beyond the typical loot-drama that accompanies a DKP system.

When TBC came out we all leveled up and she decided to reroll into a new class. She had the alt, a shaman, already geared up from alt runs.

At the time, she was playing a very unpopular spec - the 'elemental shaman'. Those of you who might remember, there was a time when ele shamans only had 1 instant, no DoTs, and no way to cast while they moved. Blizzard has since rectified this issue, but the overarching complaint was that on movement based fights (read: all) ele shaman just couldn't keep up. Analysis showed them bottom of DPS, just below boomkins.

So we got to raiding shortly after TBC released, Karazhan, and that's when the shit storm blew up once again. Coming in at 6th place, even though she was off by maybe a half percent of total dmg from 5th, was a huge confidence killer. She was ridiculed for being 'bad' at her class. Melee shamans were way outperforming at this point, and her contribution was being downplayed. Never mind the fact that she was part of a group that was server first to clear Kara - that she played a class with tangible benefits to our caster dps -- that she had clutch instant heals when needed -- that she provided bloodlust and never fucked up -- her marginally less dps than the mage was enough for her to get tormented by members of our guild. It goes without saying that on times she raided with 'pugs' she was number 1 dps by a wide margin.

Convinced of her inability to play as a girl, people started openly bashing her whenever I wasn't online -- in guild chat, in private message, etc. When I logged on, it would magically stop.

Eventually we had to give up. She couldn't log on without me being on. It got to the point where I didn't want to log on, so she couldn't either. I ended up mailing the entirety of our guild bank to the next in command, and deguilded myself, and quit WoW.

In our entire raiding history, she was the only openly female raider in our guild. It was my experience that she was much more heavily scrutinized than others, excluded from a lot of activities, and usually accused of being the 'worst' player when I know for a fact she was far from it.

I'm 100% positive it was conflated with me being the guild leader. Back then, leader was a full-time job for me in addition to anything else I had going on. A 40 man raid meant at least 66 active raiders, constant recruitment, and tons of drama.

However, because of that situation, I can barely get my wife to play any online games with me now. She's always very self conscious bout playing - about 'messing up' despite my assurances that she does a great job.

She did play here for a bit, but ultimately quit because of some real life obligations. I asked her to come back and play with me but she said she was strapped on cash and needed to save up. I asked her how much and she replied to the tune of $3.50. Well about that time I realized she was an 8 story tall crustacean from the paleozoic era! I screamed 'Goddam loch ness monster! Get off my lawn!"

boy I was angry

Please edit this post and put up a tl;dr

I've read the first 6 pages of this thread and wow... how.. ... wow. I didn't know this was such a thing. can't beleive it matters. It is what it is. I strive to treat everyone the same and don't even (conciously) consider their gender in my decision making. People either make it or fail on their own, regardless of gender. If a guy is able to manipulate folks into giving them gear, great. If a woman is able to manipulate folks into giving them gear, great. I think a lot of time people (especially people on this server) have confirmation bias rather heavily when they decide to roll female / male characters. I rolled a male character and got 8k in gear for free (Been paying it forward ever since), randomly, before level 25 -- I have a female character and didn't get 500pp in gear -- I think male characters get all the free loot. I play a male ranger, no one listens to me on raids, I think men aren't respected.

Oh ya, and in a stroke of creepiness, I call everyone sexy when they do me a favor -- I mean, come on! Who doesn't like to be told they are sexy!

[Ugrask]

Originally Posted by lecompte [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please edit this post and put up a tl;dr

No Shit, I was about to read that and went...nope.

And to the previous entries, call people out on shit but don't get worked up. It's the internet, people are going to be piles of human shit. White Knight, who cares. Chivalry should never be considered dead, unless they're right about your intentions =P

[Lictor]

Originally Posted by August [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We were in a guild that was originally formed in WC3 that was the first guild to down Onyxia. Leader was an asshat, we reformed. That leader was an asshat, and then we reformed again. I was elected leader.

So you were the top guild on horde side, or were competing to be top guild from launch till burning crusade.

Originally Posted by August [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When she hit max level, i knew she could raid - I'd seen her play in all the dungeons up to raid, and we were critically short on warlocks. If you played during molten core, you would know how essential warlocks were in so many battles. I petitioned to let her move to from a 'casual' rank to a 'raider' rank.

I do not know how your server worked around MC, but as the top guild horde side on Blackrock, we had multiple applications from various classes to fill any raiding need most with some type of gear/experience.

Originally Posted by August [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At first it was just called out as blatant favoritism. "The guild leader's whore" - this was a term that people used. Mainly behind my back, but of course I would find out. We were on progression mobs which entailed many, many wipes. The overreaction to any wipe caused by her, in comparison to the multitude of wipes caused by a LOT of our raiding members, was out of this world.

The guild leader's girl friend with no experience or gear jumps to an active raider over other qualified people in the guild who have been waiting/farming gear for a raiding spot. You don't understand why people complained or overreacted to this scenario?

Originally Posted by August [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When TBC came out we all leveled up and she decided to reroll into a new class. She had the alt, a shaman, already geared up from alt runs.

At the time, she was playing a very unpopular spec - the 'elemental shaman'. Those of you who might remember, there was a time when ele shamans only had 1 instant, no DoTs, and no way to cast while they moved. Blizzard has since rectified this issue, but the overarching complaint was that on movement based fights (read: all) ele shaman just couldn't keep up. Analysis showed them bottom of DPS, just below boomkins.

Guild leader knowingly allows girlfriend to play the worst possible dps spec/class in the game. On an alt no less, which more than likely has worse gear then the previously raid equiped main spec toon, which people already resented gearing up in the first place.

Yes 10 new levels in BC, all new gear; however, I recall still having some naxx 40 items on when i went to karazhan. Although, I could be mistaken on this.

Originally Posted by August [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So we got to raiding shortly after TBC released, Karazhan, and that's when the shit storm blew up once again. Coming in at 6th place, even though she was off by maybe a half percent of total dmg from 5th, was a huge confidence killer. She was ridiculed for being 'bad' at her class. Melee shamans were way outperforming at this point, and her contribution was being downplayed. Never mind the fact that she was part of a group that was server first to clear Kara

Server first to clear Kara. You are still in a highly competitive raid scene. Your guild downsized with the release of BC from 40 man raid force to 25. There is now more competition for raid slots. Further, Kara is only 10 man. Making the server first 10 man spots even more competitive.

What was Kara like, 2 tanks/3 healers/2 dps with CC/ and 3 flex spots? So your girlfriend's alt reroll with blue quest gear, the lowest performing dps per your damage meters, and has the non maximum dps cookie cutter spec takes one of those 3 spots?

Originally Posted by August [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

- that she played a class with tangible benefits to our caster dps -- that she had clutch instant heals when needed -- that she provided bloodlust and never fucked up -- her marginally less dps than the mage was enough for her to get tormented by members of our guild. It goes without saying that on times she raided with 'pugs' she was number 1 dps by a wide margin.

Overlooking the above flaw is OK because she could click bloodlust when told to? A melee shm can click bloodlust and bring "outperforming" dps.

A mage brings more dps and a mage could hard CC. Which at the time was a big deal. Not sure your argument on this one.

She out dps pugs who just faceroll their keyboards? Again solid argument.

Originally Posted by August [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm 100% positive it was conflated with me being the guild leader. Back then, leader was a full-time job for me in addition to anything else I had going on. A 40 man raid meant at least 66 active raiders, constant recruitment, and tons of drama.

It absolutely had to do with the entanglement of being the guild leader.

I could care less how you use your interweb powerz, and/or feel the need to e-defend your wife; however, acting like you were never in the wrong and there was zero justification for the reaction others gave you in a competitive server first guild is just comical. Take off the rose colored glasses.