TMO raid suspension secretly lifted

[Kassel]

Originally Posted by Szeth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Raiding will all but disappear within 3 months. Heard it here first.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Oh, I agree the situation is quite unfortunate. I think neither guild should have been suspended, and any punishments should have been on an individual level.

This should not be a situation where an appeals process is necessary or warranted -- if such a harsh action is to be taken, the punishment must be inarguably justified.

"Should not" and "is not" are two entirely separate things. Ideally all punishments would be justified, but this is never possible in reality. This is like saying "everyone in jail deserves to be there."

Obviously the stakes are far lower here, but the principle holds all the same.

[Nirgon]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But I hope Amelinda realizes that she has just totally sabotaged her credibility with everyone now.

God I wish I could GM this blue server.

You wouldn't think just twice but three times before acting like this.

I would be beating the shit out of people.

[Raavak]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've never seen the video, and I wasn't there, so I can't judge.

Repealing the ban was already a bad idea.

If TMO was wrongly accused why should they be punished?

Originally Posted by Xasten

Oh, I agree the situation is quite unfortunate. I think neither guild should have been suspended, and any punishments should have been on an individual level.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look if TMO wants to argue that their raid suspension was wrong/misguided, fine. I've never seen the video, and I wasn't there, so I can't judge.

But I hope Amelinda realizes that she has just totally sabotaged her credibility with everyone now. Repealing the ban was already a bad idea. What happened to "it's time for the raiding guilds to take me seriously?" Well no one is going to take you seriously when you flip-flop on your decisions based on facebook posts, and then try to hide this by telling TMO to keep it quiet.

If you want a decent raiding community on P1999, you need to do:
1] Zonewide shouts on first aggro
2] Periodic server repops every ~2 weeks
3] Full variance: give every raid mob a 1/N chance to spawn every tick thus eliminating poopsocking
4] "Raid Guild Petition forum" where each guildleader gets a maximum of 2 petitions per week, fraps is required, EVERYONE can see the evidence, and EVERY petition is answered.
5] Actual consistency with enforcing decisions.

Or just actually live up to the purpose statement of the server and be classic.

I don't know what server you all played on, but on Quellious, when we petitioned about getting trained in NToV, here was the GM response:

There was no play nice policy, the GMs didn't mediate every dispute, they didn't try to micromanage every encounter. I understand why the GMs here are trying to enforce a play nice policy, but it's simply unattainable. You have 200 people that all want the same thing and most are willing to lie, cheat, and grief their way to getting it. Every loophole, every weakness, every gray area will be exploited. It's never going to end. And in the process, you're going to completely neglect the rest of the server because you're so busy with the raiding scene.

Let them train, let them KS, let them compete. It'll be miserable for everyone for 2 weeks, and then they'll all come to civil agreements because nobody wants to spend 8 hours CRing. Let them police each other.

Spend your time going after RMTers and helping resolve run-of-the-mill petitions instead.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Raavak [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If TMO was wrongly accused why should they be punished?

Hmm that kinda disappeared in the editing but what I wanted to say was that the best approach would have been 'oh well, suck it up for 48 hours and try not to be in so many petitions' but if she had posted the video on the forums, why she decided it was worth of a ban, and why she changed her mind, I could respect that. But doing this in secret and then attempting to cover it up is just terrible.

[Jimes]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh, I agree the situation is quite unfortunate. I think neither guild should have been suspended, and any punishments should have been on an individual level.

That's situational. If the people in charge and running the raids are violating basic server rules by cheating/ninja looting/etc, then the guild shouldn't be raiding until major internal changes are made. If it was random_rogue_01 from the guild that was committing the violations, then that would be a different story.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Or just actually live up to the purpose statement of the server and be classic.

I don't know what server you all played on, but on Quellious, when we petitioned about getting trained in NToV, here was the GM response:

There was no play nice policy, the GMs didn't mediate every dispute, they didn't try to micromanage every encounter. I understand why the GMs here are trying to enforce a play nice policy, but it's simply unattainable. You have 200 people that all want the same thing and most are willing to lie, cheat, and grief their way to getting it. Every loophole, every weakness, every gray area will be exploited. It's never going to end. And in the process, you're going to completely neglect the rest of the server because you're so busy with the raiding scene.

Let them train, let them KS, let them compete. It'll be miserable for everyone for 2 weeks, and then they'll all come to civil agreements because nobody wants to spend 8 hours CRing. Let them police each other.

Spend your time going after RMTers and helping resolve run-of-the-mill petitions instead.

I'm quite ok with this. And I agree; it'll be nasty as hell for 2 weeks and then people will come to an agreement. But right now we have server rules that are selectively and secretly enforced. So either we need transparency and consistency, or no rules.

[Kassel]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Or just actually live up to the purpose statement of the server and be classic.

I don't know what server you all played on, but on Quellious, when we petitioned about getting trained in NToV, here was the GM response:

There was no play nice policy, the GMs didn't mediate every dispute, they didn't try to micromanage every encounter. I understand why the GMs here are trying to enforce a play nice policy, but it's simply unattainable. You have 200 people that all want the same thing and most are willing to lie, cheat, and grief their way to getting it. Every loophole, every weakness, every gray area will be exploited. It's never going to end. And in the process, you're going to completely neglect the rest of the server because you're so busy with the raiding scene.

Let them train, let them KS, let them compete. It'll be miserable for everyone for 2 weeks, and then they'll all come to civil agreements because nobody wants to spend 8 hours CRing. Let them police each other.

Spend your time going after RMTers and helping resolve run-of-the-mill petitions instead.

I played on quellious and there was a GM enforced rotation in NTOV after weeks of bitching between Lotus cult and Vis Maior. Ya thats right a GM enforced rotation on live, in the classic trilogy period.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh, I agree the situation is quite unfortunate. I think neither guild should have been suspended, and any punishments should have been on an individual level.



"Should not" and "is not" are two entirely separate things. Ideally all punishments would be justified, but this is never possible in reality. This is like saying "everyone in jail deserves to be there."

Obviously the stakes are far lower here, but the principle holds all the same.

No, the principle doesn't hold. They have logs here, there are fraps, everything can be documented in a highly controlled environment. If every crime occurred between the same two gangs, on video camera, and within a 12-block radius, there wouldn't be any reason for an appeals process. They're not policing an entire country with a hundred thousand different laws, they're policing a few zones in a video game with 3 or 4 rules that warrant suspension. Unlike in the real world, certainty is not only possible, it should be requisite for such a large-scale punishment.

If you're not sure, you don't make the call for a guild-wide raid suspension. If you are sure, you don't change your mind just because you're being harassed.