Feminism today

[haksum]

I take issue with a lot of this stuff, and I may be shooting the messenger, but if the messenger is disseminating poor quality information, it's better to stop them sooner than later. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok, I can understand the "I can't deal with the message so I'll shoot the messenger" vibe, but "magic force"? I'm pretty certain when men said they'd force women to have sex they weren't talking about Puppet Strings [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My point is that you have to know your pooled participants - which we don't - and that is easily manipulated. I had to do surveys in college as well I can tell you I wasn't truthful on all of them and I doubt I'm the only one especially when you're young and filling them out around your friends. 'Force' being ill-defined makes it ambiguous and can mean any form of force that your brain can think up. Most people don't take random surveys as serious as college entrance exams if they even take them at all.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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Again with the shooting the messenger [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Look you didn't even need to go to the wikipedia page itself, just read the part I quoted:

We're not talking about some bogus study that some idiot pasted in to Wikipedia without any scrutiny, we're talking about a study conducted by an econ (not women's studies!) professor at Yale and the US Secretary of Commerce. I don't know how much more "official" of a study I can find for you.

Is this a history lesson or are we talking current events? It's best to just stay away from Wikipedia as a reference. There are plenty of other academic journals and government reports available that are more 'reliable' and are open with their methods. Basing an opinion on on something like this from Wikipedia information is not the way to go.

As for the 1 in 6 number, I'm assuming you're referring to the 1995-1996 'Violence against women survey' published by the National Institute of Justice in 1998. There is a lot of interesting information there and some of it seems legit. I was impressed with the directness of the questions until I got to the last one in the 'rape' section. 'Has anyone, male of female, ever attempted to make you have vaginal, oral, or anal sex against your will but intercourse or penetration did not occur?' This is a padding question and should not be included in the 'rape' survey as worded but being that this was a politically motivated study, there's no way you couldn't have it in there because then your numbers wouldn't be as strong. This is one of those questions that pretty much every girl can answer with a 'yes' and they were counted as 'rape victims' in the study. The other questions were VERY direct and unambiguous. Remember that girl you made out with in middle school that you totally thought you were going to finger but then when you slipped your hand down her panties she pulled you away and you were like, come on baby, and she said no and you walked away with blue balls? Yeah, that was attempted rape, or at least would be qualified as such by this study.

I'm not saying rape doesn't happen and that it's not something boys and girls shouldn't both be educated about. What I don't like is the poor statistics that get thrown around because of their sensational response.

Interesting fact from the survey: You are almost twice as likely to be the recipient of rape if you are an American Indian or Alaskan Native than if you're black. Check the facts and see what I did there.

tl;dr: I feel sorry for the next generation of kids. Can't make a gun shape with your hand (or out of toast for that matter) and can't get any action. <3 loramin for being a good sport.

[paulgiamatti]

Agreed with all of that, but I feel a little disappointed precisely because of this reason. There wasn't very much fire behind it. It didn't give me much of an erection. I mean, I wasn't expecting a twanging hard-on, but I was hoping for at least some amount of discomfort.

[Pokesan]

i also consider imaginary caricatures of feminism to be an important issue that must be discussed at length

they are my enemy!!!!!!!

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by Pokesan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

i also consider imaginary caricatures

I wish those multicolor haired ham-planets were just imaginary.... I really do.

[paulgiamatti]

But for the record, I do think it was somewhat poorly written, and mostly hinged on the assumption that I was taking the positions he's arguing against; the abolition of rape/murder, the absurd idea of a conspiratorial plot to oppress and subjugate women, the idea that educational equality isn't already a practical reality, and so forth.

I didn't espouse any of these things, and I don't see any counterarguments presented in his post. It's more or less a decent complement and reinforcement of what I was saying.

[2pacalypse]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But for the record, I do think it was somewhat poorly written, and mostly hinged on the assumption that I was taking the positions he's arguing against; the abolition of rape/murder, the absurd idea of a conspiratorial plot to oppress and subjugate women, the idea that educational equality isn't already a practical reality, and so forth.

I didn't espouse any of these things, and I don't see any counterarguments presented in his post. It's more or less a decent complement and reinforcement of what I was saying.

what part of this exactly is poorly written, troll?

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rape culture:
"Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, or refusing to acknowledge the harm of some forms of sexual violence. The notion of rape culture has been used to describe and explain behavior within social groups, including prison rape, and in conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire societies have been alleged to be rape cultures"

Too me, it seems overblown to call the entire USA a rape culture. Most people agree with me. There might be pockets of rape culture, like prison, parts of the catholic church, and certain sports sub-cultures; but rape isn't generally accepted by the public, or denied to be a problem. Not in 2015 at any rate. Maybe its because I live in Oregon, where you become a registered sex offender and get up to 5 years for grabbing someones ass uninvited. I don't really know -- but one thing is for sure, feminist scholars have not really provided good empirical data to support the claim.
There is never going to be zero rape. Ever. There will never be zero murder either. Men will always have to worry about getting their ass kicked by stronger men (or groups of men) as well. All this sucks, but is really beside the point.

Historically, women were less educated than men. This is no longer going to be true. It is actually going to be the opposite, because their are more women in college and professional schools than men. There is a problem with businesses not offering paternity leave for pregnancies. But part of that is legitimate business concerns with the bottom line. The government will have to provide reimbursement to business for this to ever truly go away.
As for whole professions being discriminated against, there's something to it -- but its overstated. The main reason engineers get paid more than teachers is because engineering is less popular. If far less people were willing to work as teachers for the current pay offered, their salaries would go up. Women choose not to go into engineering -- despite being actively being pressured by academic and career advisors. It's not as if there's a guy on top of a building twisting his mustache and figuring out ways to pay women less. It's the same with computer science. There are simply less women interested than men. Its not the market or the business being sexist. The reason for women being less inclined to computer science (at least in modern times), has to do with social pressure outside of school and potential employers. Girls friends, family, etc. But people prefer to blame some dark figure in a board room instead.
The problem with pay gap conversations are the way they are pitched. There's people holding up signs about the pay gap in front of city hall....as if it is city hall doing the pay discrimination. The truth is, a male engineer and a female engineer with the same dedication to the job and level of experience, get paid the exact same the vast majority of the time. The pay gap has to do with choices women make. The way to address the issue is to discover why women make those choices -- not complain about teachers pay being sexist.
I'm not going to get into the weeds about anecdotal observations. Feminists not agreeing however, is well established. Evidence is available for anyone with google and shred of intellectual honesty.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But for the record, I do think it was somewhat poorly written, and mostly hinged on the assumption that I was taking the positions he's arguing against; the abolition of rape/murder, the absurd idea of a conspiratorial plot to oppress and subjugate women, the idea that educational equality isn't already a practical reality, and so forth.

I didn't espouse any of these things, and I don't see any counterarguments presented in his post. It's more or less a decent complement and reinforcement of what I was saying.

What part of your posts weren't eutopic idealism?

[paulgiamatti]

I'm not going to peer edit it, though I certainly could. It is what it is.

[radditsu]

PaulGiamatti needs to drink less wine ( cause of that movie, get it?)

[paulgiamatti]

Although I could add that the idea of feminists never disagreeing with one another is another thing he straw-manned out of my post, but I'm just nitpicking here. All valid points, they just don't challenge or counter any of mine.