Taken - Sev

[Hitpoint]

If one guild comes to another with a reasonable grievance; dropping a pull, or forfeiting a spawn, or giving up the loot, needs to be something all guilds are open to.

Edited for confusing sentence structure.

[Signal]

Do GMs not understand game mechanics on this server ? In the SEV thread in the raid section Derubel obviously doesn't understand the situation and he has the encounter log in front of him.

The mages that got added to Sev's aggro list immediately and 20 seconds later was no fault of their own Derubel. It happened because first Nemce set off an AoE on the mages from IB and their pets attacked Sev. Theya dragged Sev closer to other mages and his 2nd AoE went off and aggroed the next group of pets when his AoE refreshed. Bards in the group with these mages were added because they were getting coth'ed and hitting those mages with songs. Them getting added to the aggro list was the direct fault of Nemce and Theya.

[Derubael]

Originally Posted by Signal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do GMs not understand game mechanics on this server ? In the SEV thread in the raid section Derubel obviously doesn't understand the situation and he has the encounter log in front of him.

The mages that got added to Sev's aggro list immediately and 20 seconds later was no fault of their own Derubel. It happened because first Nemce set off an AoE on the mages from IB and their pets attacked Sev. Theya dragged Sev closer to other mages and his 2nd AoE went off and aggroed the next group of pets when his AoE refreshed. Bards in the group with these mages were added because they were getting coth'ed and hitting those mages with songs. Them getting added to the aggro list was the direct fault of Nemce and Theya.

We understood that part. No one should have been standing that close to Sev, in case someone showed up who didn't have faction work done. Can't just assume everyone knows what they're doing on an FFA target. You were all at fault for being too close, which is why this whole thing happened.

[Signal]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We understood that part. No one should have been standing that close to Sev, in case someone showed up who didn't have faction work done. Can't just assume everyone knows what they're doing on an FFA target. You were all at fault for being too close, which is why this whole thing happened.

Except obviously most of them were not too close. The only people to get hit with the initial AE was Nemce and the 2 IB mages (If it wasn't Nemce first I imagine the IB mages were close enough to face aggro too if they got hit by the AE). No one else got added till Theya aggroed Sev which took a conscious effort to do something to the dragon.

The next mages to be added to the encounter log was a full 18 seconds after Theya got added to the hate list. This means Theya continuing the initial FTE and having aggro around the 2nd group of people caused more mages to get AE'ed further away from the spawn. It shows who is in group with each other on the right hand side. The obvious effect of the mages pets attacking when they got AoE'ed caused the bards that got coth'ed added to the list as well via their songs. My only thoughts are "Why did mages have pets up ?". That is the only fault I can find for those mages as they didn't consciously seek out to aggro Sev.

[Herp]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We understood that part. No one should have been standing that close to Sev, in case someone showed up who didn't have faction work done. Can't just assume everyone knows what they're doing on an FFA target. You were all at fault for being too close, which is why this whole thing happened.

...what about the part where Taken pulled it on top of 160 people and killed it anyways with no legal FTE?


Hello? Is this thing working??

[Rais]

Originally Posted by Signal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do GMs not understand game mechanics on this server ? In the SEV thread in the raid section Derubel obviously doesn't understand the situation and he has the encounter log in front of him.

The CSR staff to a extent understand game mechanics. By the time I left staff this year, the last time I had raided on p99 was April 2012. Unless Aussie is in some top guild (doubtful) I was the last person to even raid on p99. Mechanics change over time on this server, and everything isn't like how it was on live. The staff knows a majority of stuff, yet are people just like everyone else and don't know everything.

So the CSR typically try and keep up to date on everything. Some more so than others. Somethings aren't working as they should be, and no one reports a bug report on it as example passing agro off. GMs aren't allowed to play on the server. To know every single aspect of everything, you have to keep a proficiency up on it or you lose it. It's the same thing as a CSR member who quits(not allowed to) playing and it's hard to keep up unless you tag along with some raiding guild and watch raids ask questions. Of course the buddy buddy system will evolve into hey add me on skype we can bs all the time comes into play. So then you add in being closer to some guilds than others that will give the benefit of doubt more often than not. (Look at the past, and you will see clear examples)

Now raid disputes and decisions are left to Sirken and Derubael. I think it worked better with just Sirken and having a quick little meeting of the staff and come to a conclusion. Not everyone got what they wanted, but the bottom line of facts were laid out on both sides of parties being bitches. As to the final decision, Sirken likes to be fluid, and being fluid to every single variable in every petition will not create consistency. As we see today and past rulings, no matter the GM they tend to try and be fluid and add in every possible factor and get tangled up with petition-quest. It just doesn't work. There needs to be a black and white line.

Now we have two chiefs who want to make the final say. Although it seems like they don't agree and contradict each other at times and it has already caused a few people ranting away about it, but I am sure they are on the same page most of the time. I know they confer with Rogean at times and if they have questions about mechanics or logs, Nilbog is always there happy to answer any question or test something asap. Nilbog has always been quick to test stuff, sometimes as we talked about it. Need logs, Rogean was there to do it.

They have the tools to work with. I would say a small handful of decisions that were "over turned" was because some weird mechanic came up, or misunderstanding. Overall they try and make the best decisions they can, sometimes it doesn't seem so as a player. To say the GMs have a unwritten rule about not being wrong, is wrong itself. A few raid suspensions were overturned and publicly stated and they are still posted in the raid section. Give them credit where credit is due.

[Hitpoint]

From Derubael in raid discussion forums. Figure I'll just respond here.

^as you can see by my excellent mspaint circles, There are multiple guilds who grabbed aggro even 30 seconds or a minute after the engage went off. Every one of these guilds are potentially breaking the rule you are referencing above. And of course we'd have to hit AG as well, for the FTE tracker fuckup. So we're basically looking at suspending 3-4 guilds from the next Sev engage - including BDA - over this one pull.

None of you guys should have any business being on that log 30 - 60 seconds after the fact if we are going to follow the "fte is king" rule here.

I circled the length as well, representing how long each player had aggro (ie, these people did not camp to get off the hate list if their 'length' is over ~30 seconds)

This is why we aren't suspending Taken, or anyone else. This situation is not the same as other FTE violations we've had in the past, nor is it close enough to the Nagafen situation Chest is referring to for it to be used as a precedent.

Edit: I forgot to circle the IB and TMO guys, but I circled their length, which was almost 2 minutes in IB's case and nearly 3 in TMO's.

Being on a mobs agro list isn't against the rules unless they cause some kind of interference by pulling agro or setting off an aoe. Our pullers stayed in game to tail the dragon with fraps since they were the only ones there, and and would have WC capped out immediately if the pull had been dropped. Which still isn't the best choice and they probably should have camped immediately, but at least it isn't a rules violation. No rules were broken by anyone who got on that dragons agro list, except the mag who initially agro'd, which he rectified by immediately dying and then NOT pulling the dragon in. The violation which matters here, is a guild killing a mob which they do not have FTE on.

[Hitpoint]

Like I said, I don't care about the ruling personally. No big deal. But lets not pretend like we all did something wrong here.

[Swish]

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[Nuktari]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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can i borrow that when ur done?