Sirken's proposal

[Hitpoint]

Originally Posted by Bruman [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hey guys, Vanilla Gods and Kunark launch content are top tier, makes sense. Nevermind that they have epics (which is mostly resolved with planar revamps in Velious).

Seriously though - VP is top tier from a content perspective. That's it. After that it's about having a raid scene that lets both styles do their thing.

Tier 1 - VP and hardcore tracking/alting/socking/whatever, go nuts
Tier 2 - Probably a rotation (or close to it) with a time limit on engaging

Not to mention - everyone but FE is behind Rogean's plan. TMO was some smaller changes made, and that's it. This is really just a circle jerk of FE and Sirken and Deru.

Rogean's plan is literally the worst proposal for us. I've talked to IB and they want another. I find it very hard to believe anyone in TMO would accept this without major changes. And the plan is completely and totally unacceptable to FE. Our leader has posted such. I don't even know why anyone is still posting in the thread. It should go the way of all the other proposals in the past few days, which are not even relevant anymore. As far as I can tell the only reason people are even still discussing it is that Rogean posted it in the raid chat section, and nobody else can voice how completely terrible it is except the officers who are trying to maintain composure.

It's never going to happen. You are fooling yourself if you think otherwise. Next proposal please.

[ElanoraBryght]

In case everyone forgot, the casual guilds REFUSED to pull every dirty trick in the book to get those targets. We refused to DA stall tank, "accidentally" train, leapfrog, FTE snipe, rules lawyer, manipulate logs, ninja loot, buy up hundreds of accounts, etc etc

So PLEASE explain to me again how you'd like to punish casual guilds for adhering to the rules, being good citizens, and saying we refused to "compete." It's an asinine argument. We refused to stoop as low as TMO and FE therefore we (the casuals) just don't care enough. That's bullshit, and every single person on this server knows it's bullshit.

This.
(Although I'd call it a circular argument.)

[Mezzmur]

Originally Posted by ElanoraBryght [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This.
(Although I'd call it a circular argument.)

Not helpful. Focus on future, not past, we've already discussed this and it's about moving forward not QQing about what has happen.

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Originally Posted by Mezzmur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For those late to the party.

Take TMO/FE Proposal that was originally posted with 7 day hands off, move that to 10, move Sirken's Mob list instead of TMO/FE's, ADD Sirken's PNP, Take TMO/FE No In-game Poopsock Rules. Tier 2 can have a rotation if they want, up to them. Tier 1 attacks Tier 2 on First 10 Days, Second 20 days Tier 1 on Tier 1....... YOU GET THIS:

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

100% Fair to All, Tier 2 gets MORE mobs than Tier 1, and Tier 2 can attack Tier 1 mobs on the second 20 days. Someone decide rules on how you shift tier 1 and 2. If you don't like this idea you're donkers!

[falkun]

Originally Posted by Mezzmur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not helpful. Focus on future, not past, we've already discussed this and it's about moving forward not QQing about what has happen.

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Sadly Sirken's whole proposal is based on the past:

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you have to have something, before u can actually give it up.

According to Rogean, we were to be creating equitable solutions for the future:

Originally Posted by Rogean [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I was thinking to myself the other day and I came to ask myself.. Are we providing this server to give people the arena to compete to such bitter extremes that it has resorted to taking every absolute measure to be victorious, or are we here to provide a classic Everquest experience for everyone to enjoy?

A lot of you make fun of it in your own terms, but it really does come down to fighting over very old content.

Either way, we're tired of the constant bickering, the training, the ninja looting, and all the other bullshit that's going on. So here's what we're going to do.

Starting today and then evaluated when Velious is released the CSR staff will be keeping track of how the raid guilds are treating eachother. If we do not see a significant improvement in the behavior of the raiding guilds and how they treat eachother, Velious will be released without raid content. To be clear, we want an enjoyable raid scene for everyone, not just one or two guilds. This means working together to figure out a compromise when racing for mobs, and working with smaller guilds to let them have a chance at mobs you don't absolutely need for gearing main characters.

Don't think that this means you can continue shitting on each other and just not petition, the staff will still be watching..

If a proposal favors the hardcores because they have everything to lose, they are basing the agreement on the past. If a proposal favors the casuals, they are not creating an equitable solution for everyone on the server.

[Mezzmur]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sadly Sirken's whole proposal is based on the past:

According to Rogean, we were to be creating equitable solutions for the future:


If a proposal favors the hardcores because they have everything to lose, they are basing the agreement on the past. If a proposal favors the casuals, they are not creating an equitable solution for everyone on the server.

Did you read my proposal? How is it not equitable to promote both styles and share mobs? Please tell.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sadly Sirken's whole proposal is based on the past:

According to Rogean, we were to be creating equitable solutions for the future:


If a proposal favors the hardcores because they have everything to lose, they are basing the agreement on the past. If a proposal favors the casuals, they are not creating an equitable solution for everyone on the server.

This proposal favors the casuals too..... very greatly.

[Fael]

Deajay,

Why should the staff abandon Classic Everquest raiding, recreate a crazy ass system, for 3 months worth of raiding?

The whole point of this is to create a system where tier one guilds don't "monopolize" content.

Opening up a large percentage of raid mobs to exclusively be had by casual tier 2 guilds for 1/3 of the month is a fantastic opportunity for you guys. You guys are just too greedy and shortsighted to see it.

If you can't accept it, things should just go back to the way things were, and then bind TMO/FE and any other raid guild to fulfill the obligations of the reasonable proposals that we have already put forth.

Im sorry, you only had bargaining power because it was graciously given to you by the staff, and to the extent that you misread or misinterpreted Rogean's words.

If you were smart, and looking ahead, you would realize that you would have a strong argument to extend this sort of agreement into velious where you would have free access for 1/3 of the month to go after all the tier 2 targets in velious. But no, you can't look ahead, and are stuck in squabling over 3 months of rotated mobs, of which you will personally only see a small percentage of.

Dolic

[Rhambuk]

Fael

Originally Posted by Rogean [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious
Speaking of velious, I know you guys have been asking for an update. I plan to make a more accurate announcement at some point but Velious development is proceeding well and we may be opening Beta within a few months. Stay tuned.

I only bring this up because you've mentioned it twice now, velious release in 3 months.
not to be a dick just to let ya know )

[Elements]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sadly Sirken's whole proposal is based on the past:

According to Rogean, we were to be creating equitable solutions for the future:


If a proposal favors the hardcores because they have everything to lose, they are basing the agreement on the past. If a proposal favors the casuals, they are not creating an equitable solution for everyone on the server.

Nothing in that post has anything to do with equity and if it did I'm sure it would be equity of effort=reward not social pixel sharing.

[falkun]

Dolic,
I am under the impression the raid agreement will be carried over into Velious. Why would you pour a shitty foundation now to put the house of Velious upon when you can lay a good foundation for a sturdy Velious? Or would you rather CSR raid suspends everyone again at Velious release so we can hash this out all over again? Now I'll concede you and I have different definitions of a "good foundation", but I hope we can both agree we'd only like to do it once.

Flippie,
Where did I discuss your proposal (especially in that quote)? You state focusing on the past is not good for negotiating. I'm saying tier2 is not here for a "pound of flesh." As Loraen said in the Raid forums, hardcores want 100% FFA, casuals want 100% rotation. A true compromise is the Rogean proposal at 50/50, two separate little playgrounds. The Divinity proposal, especially with excluded VP, is stacked in favor of the hardcores, but still with two little playgrounds.

Everything I'm seeing from the hardcore camp entails "competition." The casuals do not want competition, especially at the level historically defined by TMO. As a casual, I feel like every raid proposal from hardcores is attempting to justify their ideal of competition by forcing it on the casuals. I feel suppression of the casuals is what hardcores want, it provides the justification for the inordinate amount of time spent in the game. Deru is right, it is work, but its not "Classic" work, it was artificially created by Project1999-specific mechanics.