Raiding in P1999 is nothing like raiding in classic.

[GreyPowerVan]

Lol, it's so funny how TMO defend their training by just calling people names and making fun of them.

Nice passive aggressiveness, guys.

DISCLAIMER: i don't raid and won't raid on this server probably, don't even have a 60 --- i just like the drama.

[Morgander]

Originally Posted by W8Gamer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok, I'm not even sure where to begin with this post. First, let me just say that I'm a returning player after a 2 year hiatus. I just returned to p99 this year. So, I'm not exactly current on all the raid/guild drama that has occurred on the server. However, from reading several of the raiding discussions and hearing some of the history of TMO, I've gathered this much (by all means correct me if I'm wrong):

Training in VP has been allowed since the zone opened. Raiding rules have always been fairly the same aside from a few changes like variance, FTE, and what not. For the most part though there has not been some substantial, game changing rule. Now, TMO has not always been the top guild. From what I understand, TMO at one point in time used to wipe breaking into fear. I've read a few posts of people mocking TMO for this. So, obviously they have not always been as strong as they are now.

What does that tell me? That tells me that TMO had to work to get to where they are within the same rules and guildelines that are currently implemented. TMO had to deal with the same trains any other guild has to deal with when they raid VP.

With that said, let me address some of these ridiculous analogies and comparisons. First off, comparing the raiding scene of EverQuest (a game) to an economic monopoly or the gas wars is just plain retarded (for lack of a better word). Almost as retarded as comparing it to a room of people where not sharing food could result in the death of another person. I'm pretty sure no one on the server is going to die if they don't get their raid loots. These are terrible examples for one reason. EverQuest is a GAME. It's a GAME. A GAME! How can you compare a GAME to the economy of the real world? In the GAME of EverQuest I can choose whether or not I am affected by simply not playing or not participating in certain aspects of the game and it having no impact on my livelihood. I had started to type up an in-depth explanation, but in all honesty, if you can't see how stupid this sounds, then nothing I say is going to change your mind or feelings about this.

A proper comparison of EverQuest (again, a game) would be to yet another type of game. The comparison to chess was actually quite good, because like EverQuest, chess is a game. Ever heard of the saying comparing apples to oranges? That's what you're doing with the EQ raiding scene and the gas wars (lol). How about we stick to apples? So, what would be a good comparison for the raiding scene of EQ? In my opinion, Kind of the Hill. Ever play? See, in King of the Hill, a certain spot is deemed "the hill" and the "King" is whoever stands on it. The objective of the other players is to knock the king off the hill and control it themselves. Whoever controls the hill the longest is winning or wins the game. That's what TMO is right now. They are the King of the Hill. They weren't at one point though. See, they played the game and they knocked the previous king off the hill. And because they are so good at the game, everyone wants to cry out for a rule change. However, what rule changes were made when TMO wasn't the king? Was the previous king told to step down from the hill and give TMO a chance at king?

Like most games, there are winners and losers. The beauty of EverQuest is you get to decide how you win at the game. For me, winning is being the best on the server. That's my win and I'm pretty sure TMO shares in the same sentiment. They want to win and winning to them is being the strongest guild and in order to be the strongest guild, they need to kill the strongest mobs. So, why exactly should they share? Why should they favor a rotation? They played the game within the rules and are currently winning. It's like if we were playing basketball and TMO just scored a 3 pointer, you expect them to give you the ball and allow you to try and shoot a 3 pointer except you want a change in the rules. You want to say TMO isn't allowed to steal the ball or attempt to block your shot even though you were absolutely allowed to do it to them, but either didn't or just weren't able too.

Anyway, this seems classic to me. On E`Ci Reconstructed was the boss guild and they controlled the end game and weren't content with sharing with any competing guilds. And why should they? We are playing a game aren't we? I'm not about to let the opposing team shoot 3 pointers all day long uncontested and I'm damn sure not about to let that one kid stand on my hill for too long either. Play the game.

But this isn't even how Everquest works.

Everquest's mechanics allow kill stealing, boxing, training, and by definition of the coding, allow for a single group with the highest dps to get every kill on every mob (not the raid-force, but the single group).

We're forced to come up with rules to ensure these base mechanics cannot be manipulated by those players who could and would do whatever it takes to "win".

Had Everquest actually functioned like this (or P1999 for that matter), then there would be no such thing as rules arbitration.

Want to be the "best", as you've described? Allow universal training and kill stealing. Why do we even have an FTE rule then? Why not just let everything be completely free for all, and let the single group with the highest dps get the kill and the loot?

You defend a situation on the basis of your personal desires, and that's the only basis you have to compare logic here. Your logic reasons that, the current rules MOST benefit your own personal agenda, therefore it's the most appropriate ruleset.

Should FTE rules be revoked, should training and kill stealing be universally accepted, then you'll "win" a whole lot less, get frustrated, and demand change.

Now if what you've stated is blatant truth, this shouldn't be the case, but I know it would be.

It's a hypocrisy, and you know it is. I shouldn't have to point this out, it's as bright as day.

You're backing a system that endorses your point of view.

The difference between you and I, is that I'm not even endorsing a system here. The only thing I'm doing is stating that logging out characters to "poop-sock" isn't fun, and that the current raid situation isn't even good competition.

Never did I say that I felt competition is in poor taste. Never did I say that I felt that any one guild or group of guilds should not be able to "be the best". I simply presented two ideas: "'Poop-socking' is boring ---- 'the current raid system doesn't apply good competition factors'".

And besides, if the argument here is really going to be that "the best are the best and should remain the best because they're the best", then the "best" need not worry about superficial rules like FTE and training. Right?

If you can still get all the loot even with kill stealing, training, boxing, and everything else we've got a rule for, then you're even MORE the best.

But that's not really what you want.

[Autotune]

Kill stealing is legal in VP.

[Arteker]

Originally Posted by Morgander [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But this isn't even how Everquest works.

Everquest's mechanics allow kill stealing, boxing, training, and by definition of the coding, allow for a single group with the highest dps to get every kill on every mob (not the raid-force, but the single group).

We're forced to come up with rules to ensure these base mechanics cannot be manipulated by those players who could and would do whatever it takes to "win".

Had Everquest actually functioned like this (or P1999 for that matter), then there would be no such thing as rules arbitration.

Want to be the "best", as you've described? Allow universal training and kill stealing. Why do we even have an FTE rule then? Why not just let everything be completely free for all, and let the single group with the highest dps get the kill and the loot?

You defend a situation on the basis of your personal desires, and that's the only basis you have to compare logic here. Your logic reasons that, the current rules MOST benefit your own personal agenda, therefore it's the most appropriate ruleset.

Should FTE rules be revoked, should training and kill stealing be universally accepted, then you'll "win" a whole lot less, get frustrated, and demand change.

Now if what you've stated is blatant truth, this shouldn't be the case, but I know it would be.

It's a hypocrisy, and you know it is. I shouldn't have to point this out, it's as bright as day.

You're backing a system that endorses your point of view.

The difference between you and I, is that I'm not even endorsing a system here. The only thing I'm doing is stating that logging out characters to "poop-sock" isn't fun, and that the current raid situation isn't even good competition.

Never did I say that I felt competition is in poor taste. Never did I say that I felt that any one guild or group of guilds should not be able to "be the best". I simply presented two ideas: "'Poop-socking' is boring ---- 'the current raid system doesn't apply good competition factors'".

And besides, if the argument here is really going to be that "the best are the best and should remain the best because they're the best", then the "best" need not worry about superficial rules like FTE and training. Right?

If you can still get all the loot even with kill stealing, training, boxing, and everything else we've got a rule for, then you're even MORE the best.

But that's not really what you want.

if tmo didint follow the rules then u would even cry bigger and bigger , as top guild and with other looking for any exuse to kick us we usualy plety carefull to obey staff rules.
unlike otehrs i can name [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Arteker]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Kill stealing is legal in VP.

and FE tried x2 times in vp but aswell did not worked .

[gotrocks]

**headdesk**

[Autotune]

I personally think what W8gamer posted was spot on and that it just completely went over Morganders head.

[Tiddlywinks]

Originally Posted by JayN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't honestly say that you have been around long enough to see TMO single handedly push hundreds of players away from p99 and still think nothing is wrong with p99 raiding.

Couldn't agree more.

[Tiddlywinks]

Originally Posted by W8Gamer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok, I'm not even sure where to begin with this post. First, let me just say that I'm a returning player after a 2 year hiatus. I just returned to p99 this year. So, I'm not exactly current on all the raid/guild drama that has occurred on the server. However, from reading several of the raiding discussions and hearing some of the history of TMO, I've gathered this much (by all means correct me if I'm wrong):

Training in VP has been allowed since the zone opened. Raiding rules have always been fairly the same aside from a few changes like variance, FTE, and what not. For the most part though there has not been some substantial, game changing rule. Now, TMO has not always been the top guild. From what I understand, TMO at one point in time used to wipe breaking into fear. I've read a few posts of people mocking TMO for this. So, obviously they have not always been as strong as they are now.

What does that tell me? That tells me that TMO had to work to get to where they are within the same rules and guildelines that are currently implemented. TMO had to deal with the same trains any other guild has to deal with when they raid VP.

With that said, let me address some of these ridiculous analogies and comparisons. First off, comparing the raiding scene of EverQuest (a game) to an economic monopoly or the gas wars is just plain retarded (for lack of a better word). Almost as retarded as comparing it to a room of people where not sharing food could result in the death of another person. I'm pretty sure no one on the server is going to die if they don't get their raid loots. These are terrible examples for one reason. EverQuest is a GAME. It's a GAME. A GAME! How can you compare a GAME to the economy of the real world? In the GAME of EverQuest I can choose whether or not I am affected by simply not playing or not participating in certain aspects of the game and it having no impact on my livelihood. I had started to type up an in-depth explanation, but in all honesty, if you can't see how stupid this sounds, then nothing I say is going to change your mind or feelings about this.

A proper comparison of EverQuest (again, a game) would be to yet another type of game. The comparison to chess was actually quite good, because like EverQuest, chess is a game. Ever heard of the saying comparing apples to oranges? That's what you're doing with the EQ raiding scene and the gas wars (lol). How about we stick to apples? So, what would be a good comparison for the raiding scene of EQ? In my opinion, Kind of the Hill. Ever play? See, in King of the Hill, a certain spot is deemed "the hill" and the "King" is whoever stands on it. The objective of the other players is to knock the king off the hill and control it themselves. Whoever controls the hill the longest is winning or wins the game. That's what TMO is right now. They are the King of the Hill. They weren't at one point though. See, they played the game and they knocked the previous king off the hill. And because they are so good at the game, everyone wants to cry out for a rule change. However, what rule changes were made when TMO wasn't the king? Was the previous king told to step down from the hill and give TMO a chance at king?

Like most games, there are winners and losers. The beauty of EverQuest is you get to decide how you win at the game. For me, winning is being the best on the server. That's my win and I'm pretty sure TMO shares in the same sentiment. They want to win and winning to them is being the strongest guild and in order to be the strongest guild, they need to kill the strongest mobs. So, why exactly should they share? Why should they favor a rotation? They played the game within the rules and are currently winning. It's like if we were playing basketball and TMO just scored a 3 pointer, you expect them to give you the ball and allow you to try and shoot a 3 pointer except you want a change in the rules. You want to say TMO isn't allowed to steal the ball or attempt to block your shot even though you were absolutely allowed to do it to them, but either didn't or just weren't able too.

Anyway, this seems classic to me. On E`Ci Reconstructed was the boss guild and they controlled the end game and weren't content with sharing with any competing guilds. And why should they? We are playing a game aren't we? I'm not about to let the opposing team shoot 3 pointers all day long uncontested and I'm damn sure not about to let that one kid stand on my hill for too long either. Play the game.

The only thing worth adding is how TMO went from not being able to break fear and wiping to Draco despite using Ivandyrs Hoops to the top guild. They merged with the former #2 raiding guild (Fusion/Dark Ascension etc) and began to challenge the #1 guild (Transatlantic Rampage/Inglourious Basterds etc) on Trakanon so that they could get keys to VP before it opened since it was delayed about 8 months on this server. More than half a year of mostly equal competition, both guilds were sitting on a 1 week raid suspension handed down by former GM Amelinda.

In the middle of that suspension, without notifying anybody from any other guilds, Amelinda secretly lifted TMO's raid suspension and this enraged the other guild at the time (renamed Inglourious Basterds again by this point) to stop playing on the server.

It was later revealed that a member of TMO (quickfingers aka tiggle) was Amelinda's girlfriend, and it was also revealed that Amelinda had taken bribes from members of the community that were selling things for USD.

In threads such as this TMO will typically try to stand behind their reason of "we had to play by these rules to achieve what we did, and so should you" but will conveniently leave out details such as how they came into being the undisputed #1 guild on the server. Since then they've only grown stronger.

Disregarding all logic for why the current non-classic raid scene inside of VP should be made better and ignoring all arguments for it (because the scene currently favors them and only them).

Just thought that may be worth mentioning as to why the majority of players hate the current raid scene, think it unfair, and believe a change to a more-classic and PVE friendly end-game would be beneficial and the best route.

[Tiddlywinks]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is pretty much spot on.

However, a correction and point of interest, VP was released and it was under a mandatory "rotation" of sorts. IB and TMO rolled off for dragons and Rogean/Nilbog watched the encounters to see how they functioned.

Most people like to think it was staff giving TMO dragons/loot, but actually they just didn't want to deal with IB and TMO's crap for hours on end just to see how their dragons were going to hold up.

Most people believe this because TR/IB had been ready to raid VP months before another guild on the server had killed Trakanon. The delay with VP's release gave time for another force (the newly-merged TMO) to key up and be allowed to rotate with TR.