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#1
09-01-2022, 05:10 PM
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You don't actually need this dude to say he's wrong, and the insistence on turning your wheels to get them to say so is dumb and fruitless. Most importantly though, I give exactly zero shits if DSM knows what they're talking about or not. I cannot describe to you how easy it is to look at someone who you think is wrong, know for certain you are correct about something, and not engage that person. You don't need their validation and you don't need to assert how correct you are, especially over something as fucking stupid as this. You might say, "Kich, that's exactly what DSM is doing" -- and that's true, but it very clearly comes from a different place. I think you're all still responding because you're more bothered that DSM said you're wrong than he would be bothered by being wrong. I think, demonstrably, the dude just likes talking on forums and debating things. And so this is an unbalanced conversation that you all could've avoided had you seen DSM disagree with you and you just go: "Yeah no that's fuckin crazy" and then not respond to the thread anymore. | |||
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#2
09-01-2022, 06:52 PM
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If you truly think this is waste of oxygen, why are you even here yourself? If we're all childish and crazy somehow, just let us be. I refuse to listen to this hypocritical speech about how I need to be the bigger man here. Yeah, I do want him to admit he's wrong. You may think that's pointless, but I want sanity to flourish here. That's not going to happen if we go "shucks, what are you gonna do?!" and let him go off thinking he's in the right. | |||
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#3
09-01-2022, 05:57 PM
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"Flaccid floppy weiner of an argument" lol? Nope. No "argument" here! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I have merely stated facts and posed simple questions, and I can't help it if you have misunderstood my factual statements or are (intentionally or otherwise) misconstruing your true understanding of them. I also simply can't help it if the facts I state and questions I pose backed your likely friend/guildy/alt DSM into a corner of silent concession (in two threads hehe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]). That thread is still available, and I am happy to engage in a civil discussion with you about what you believe I've stated in that thread was not factual hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Can you challenge the actual content of the posts in the thread? DSM couldn't - I present that previous thread as evidence (he called me silly & stopped replying hehe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]). | |||
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#4
09-01-2022, 06:29 PM
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You were being fuckin dumb in that other thread and you never had much of an argument. Your facts were pointless because the entire conversation was unbelievably stupid between the both of you. Being endlessly rustled by some nerd on the internet isn't healthy. You're (probably) an adult, get a grip on your life and your self esteem, this dude's validation isn't fuckin worth it pal. You don't need it. | |||
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#5
09-01-2022, 06:57 PM
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Why would you be happy to engage uncivilly, and why with me specifically? There are many posters you could do so with instead, and for some specific reason you chose to (I am still not clear what exactly? my best guesses are) discredit/embarrass/ridicule (or whatever you're trying to do) me, and particularly (seemingly) for simply stating facts and asking questions in a manner similar to that which DSM has done literally thousands more times than I have? Any particular reason? Is he your friend/guildy/alt or something hehe? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Quote:
I have already explained/stated factually to you that I did not ever have an "argument", so I am not sure what point you believe you are making by talking about "my argument" again hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] So would I be correct in stating that your posts are intended to convey that you believe that MY facts/posts (mine specifically) in that other thread were pointless (enough for you to point out here in this thread), yet other posts - such as the ones of DSM's that I was directly responding/replying to - were not? If that is not what you are trying to say, would you possibly be able to further explain/extrapolate what are you trying to say exactly, and shed light on why are you saying it specifically to me? Quote:
I am an adult and I have great self esteem. I do not know why your post seems to imply that you have some reason to believe otherwise hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I do not care about what you believe is or is not valid or what you believe is worth validation, but as I have stated above, I am curious the reasoning for your choice to direct your posts toward me in this manner. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] | |||||
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Last edited by cyxthryth; 09-01-2022 at 07:15 PM..
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#7
09-01-2022, 04:20 PM
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Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 09-01-2022 at 04:22 PM..
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#8
09-01-2022, 04:25 PM
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Because there's no reason for this thread to go on this long. That's why I'm posting. I want you to stop this childishness, and make way for better discussions.
We've already told you that root rotting is pointless, and doesn't help the two enchanters and cleric in this hypothetical situation. Might as well group with some necromancers and other shamans in that case. We can't continue this conversation in a civil manner, when you are a distinctly childish attention seeking troll. Come off it! | ||
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#9
09-01-2022, 06:49 PM
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Imagine thinking there's droves of silent readers of this dumpster fire thread and they're reading DSM's 500+ posts and going "Thank god someone is posting super useful and smart data so I can learn". That might be the funniest delusion DSM holds. It's almost funnier than saying warriors solo better than enchanters with a straight face and defending that retarded point for like a dozen pages of people saying it's ridiculous.
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1: Mage is a better group DPS class than Shaman
2: Enchanters solo better than Warriors These statements are not up for debate amongst sane human beings Why does <Vanquish> allow DSM to be a member? | ||
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#10
09-02-2022, 07:24 PM
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The trolls are still here posting to each other? I guess they need to be consoled after losing so thoroughly.
Troxx, PlsNoBan, Cyxthryth, Toxigen, Ripqozko, Karanis, and Gloomlord have at least 500 posts combined that are literally just insults and/or memes with absolutely nothing to do with the topic. At least they are starting to admit they are trolling flat out. That is helpful. I wouldn't recommend listening to anything they have to say in this thread, it is not objective. Reposting an overview of the discussion. This is the data given, so it is all we can use. It would be great if someone else posted some data. ============================Mage DPS=================================== This data is reportedly from a group Troxx had in Sebilis Crypt: [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] According to Troxx, his pet is buffed with Burnout IV, and it is a level 60 Water Pet Unfocused. Pet level is guessed at 1 level under max, since a few parses show the max hit of 58. Average pet DPS: (36 + 50 + 45 + 51 + 30 + 49 + 56 + 60 + 55) / 9 = 48 DPS. A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick sitting and 12 mana per tick standing. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with. Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600. Shock of Steel costs 275 mana. Let's assume the Mage has Conjuration Specialization. This reduces the cost to 248. Since the Mage will most likely lose 1 meditation tick due to the 6 second cast time, the mana cost goes back up to 268, to account for the 20 mana lost from not meditating. This means you can cast Shock of Steel 80 times per hour, assuming that is the only thing you do. Troxx's average casts per individual fight: (5 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 8) / 9 = 5. To pull this off, that means he is spending 1340 - 290 (9 med ticks + 1 standing tick) = 1050 mana per encounter. After 3 encounters he would be out of mana, so there is no way he can sustain the DPS numbers provided. This is why we use the average of 1 nuke per minute, as it is not realistic to be nuking at a high DPS consistently. 74.22 is also close to the overall encounter of 80 DPS, so there is no reason to doubt the individual sets vs. the whole set. Average player DPS without clickies: (825 damage x 80 nukes) / 3600 seconds = 18.33 DPS. Using a https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem , which is a level 49 Sebilis mob and similar to Crypt mobs, an unslowed mob did 74 hits in 144 seconds. (74 x 33) / 144 = 16.95 DPS Average Damage Shield DPS: 16.95 DPS. Average Total DPS without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 16.95 = 83.28 DPS Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 35.29 + 16.95 = 100.24 DPS Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 24.66 + 16.95 = 89.61 DPS The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group: Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 11.45 = 77.78 DPS The Direct damage number is lower because you would realistically only be able to nuke once per minute due to mana, so ((825 * 0.5) / 36) = 11.45 DPS Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 16.66 + 16.95 = 81.61 DPS The DPS is halved on this due to it being difficult to realistically get two 17 second casts off in 36 seconds. Average Total DPS in 36 seconds https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 18.5 + 16.95 = 83.45 DPS ============================Shaman DPS=================================== https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg - Pet DPS video, logs are attached in description. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Shaman Torpor Mana Recovery Video. Pet DPS is using a max level pet with Celerity (50% haste), Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit. Average pet DPS: 7321 damage over 414 seconds = 17.7 DPS A Shaman with max Torpor and Clarity II is regenerating mana at rougly 16 mana per second. Let's assume this Shaman has 3000 Mana to start with. Max mana per hour: (16 x 3600) + 3000 = 60600. Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt cost 745 mana total. This means you could cast this combination 81 a maximum of times per hour. You would not be using Conjuraton Specialization typically, so the number doesn't change. Average player DPS without clickies (Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt): ((1648 + 1278) x 60) / 3600 seconds = 48.76 DPS. Average Total DPS without clickies: 17.7 + 48.76 = 66.46 DPS Average Total DPS with JBB: 17.7 + 32.88 = 50.58 DPS Average Total DPS with 1 Epic Click + 1x Pox + 2x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 63 = 80.7 DPS Average Total DPS with 2x Epic Click + 2x Bane of Nife (on 2 mobs): 17.7 + 68.3 = 86 DPS I will not use this for the differences in DPS below, since everything else is single target DPS. The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group: Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies (2x Ice Strike): 17.7 + 37.5 = 55.2 DPS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E - Shaman Quick DPS video, logs are attached in description. Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with JBB: 17.7 + 29.22 = 46.92 DPS Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with 1x JBB and 1x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 35.25 = 52.95 DPS This would be a bit more mana efficient than 2x Ice Strikes, could do more DPS if the mob takes longer to kill, and is the same cast time as 2x Ice Strikes. ============================Difference in DPS=================================== Average Total DPS difference without clickies: 83.28 DPS (Mage) - 66.46 DPS (Shaman) = 26.82 DPS Average Total DPS difference with best clickies: 100.24 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 19.54 DPS The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group: Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference without clickies: 77.78 DPS (Mage) - 55.2 DPS (Shaman) = 22.58 DPS Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference with best clickies: 83.45 DPS - 52.95 DPS = 30.5 DPS Difference is between 19.54 DPS and 30.5 DPS, depending on the setup of the Mage vs. the Shaman, and killspeed. ============================Conclusion============ ======================= The reason for this breakdown is because the debate is choosing between Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric or Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric for OP's question. The argument for Mage is DPS + Malo + Charm Break Safety. A Shaman has both Charm Break Safety (Pet + Torpor) and a better Malo -> Malosini chance, due to Malo being better than Mala. When looking at DPS, you can see that you will only lose 20-30 DPS when picking a Shaman over a Mage. Using Troxx's Data, you can see that two charmed level 47 mobs with a Torch and Haste would do 86x2 = 172 DPS. This means you are looking at a difference between 255 DPS and 225 DPS. When killing a mob with 8000 HP, the difference would be 31 seconds vs. 36 seconds. The Mage is only saving 5 seconds per kill, and offers very little else. A Shaman's toolkit on the other hand has a much broader application, and will save your group time in other less quantifiable ways. I see very little reason to pick a Mage over a Shaman. The other debate that spawned was whether to take a Shaman or not based on them being less useful at low levels. It is true Shamans don't come into their own until level 30 or so, but this is true for Enchanters and clerics too. https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...postcount=1273 This post shows a level 24 warrior out-DPSing a level 27 charmed pet with 37% haste and a Torch. Enchanter charm isn't as powerful as people think at lower levels, plus Enchanters have to deal with more meditating, lower mana pool, more fizzles, more interrupts, resists, etc. The 2x Enchanters in this group aren't going to be as good as melees with 2k worth of gear. The cleric is also going to bring fairly little to the table. This shouldn't deter you from bringing these classes, as they are well worth the wait once you get to level 30 or so. Luckily leveling from 1-30 is going to be super easy with any group of 4, so this shouldn't be a big consideration. Finally, this debate is looking at all level ranges, from 1-60, including level 60 item farming. It is up to the user to decide whether they want to pick a Mage for slightly faster kill speeds from levels 1-60 and during level 60 farming, or pick a Shaman for their superior utility and safety. This is very useful when farming level 60 camps like Fungi King and Ixiblat Fer. Honestly a group of 4 casters is already going to level extremely quickly, so I do not believe the Mage is worth it. A slightly better leveling experience does not make up for a Mage bringing very little at the end. OP has already chosen his group (Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Mage), so it is actually a draw hehe. I personally would do Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Cleric.
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Hybrid Mode
