Shadow knight aggro

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Adding a new line to a macro does not increase APM.



2. It's +1 hate and an 8.33% chance to taunt at the correct time without needing to think about it. You cannot simply ignore this fact and pretend it will go away.



3. If you are unable to press a single macro with Taunt/Disarm/Beg on it, you probably aren't going to be pressing taunt at all anyway.



4. I already debunked the claim that "strategic taunting is the only viable method for using taunt" in my previous post. Taunt spamming is viable too.

You have been proven wrong. Please act like an adult and stop shying away from this fact. It's ok to admit you are wrong sometimes.

You have proven nothing, we already knew the correct answer before you got involved.

Knights, do not bother clicking taunt unless you wish to raise your skill in it, or reacquire lost aggro. Ignore the myths/lies/theories.

[bcbrown]

Thanks a ton for putting this into a single clear post. Please forgive me, but I've spent a fair amount of time carefully scrutinizing your definitions for Scenario A and Scenario B, and I must admit I fail to see the difference between them:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Scenario A - Spam Taunt:

1. Press Taunt
2. Taunt fails for whatever reason (bad timing, mob distance, lose the random number game)
3. Switch your style to strategic taunting
4. Wait 6 seconds
5. Press Taunt again
6. Taunt succeeds
7. Continue taunting as necessary (mob flips again, multiple mobs are in camp, etc.)

Scenario B - Strategic Taunt:

1. Press Taunt
2. Taunt fails for whatever reason (bad timing, mob distance, lose the random number game)
3. Switch your style to strategic taunting
4. Wait 6 seconds
5. Press Taunt again
6. Taunt succeeds
7. Continue taunting as necessary (mob flips again, multiple mobs are in camp, etc.)

Is there something I'm missing?

Assuming there's a simple mistake there, I think I can completely agree with the spirit of your definitions for Scenario A and Scenario B, although I'll call them spam-taunt and strategy-taunt, as that helps keep me from getting confused by which one is which.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only difference between the two scenarios is spamming taunt has a lower chance of success on the first taunt. After that you can switch to strategic taunting for all subsequent taunts until the situation is under control. Nobody is disagreeing with the fact that spamming taunt has a lower chance of success on the first taunt, including myself. Nor have I ever argued otherwise.

Great, we're in agreement! Strategy-taunt has a higher chance of success on the first taunt.

"The benefit of spamming taunt is it allows you to save APM and/or brain power to focus on other things, while still retaining some benefit."

This is incorrect. Spam-taunt will be up to 10 APM HIGHER than strategy-taunt; after all, you might clicking taunt every six seconds will be ten clicks per minute. If you replace hitting Bash whenever it's available with hitting a macro of Bash/Taunt, then perhaps there might be zero APM difference, but the strategy-taunt approach will never have higher APM than the spam-taunt approach. Advantage on APM: (minimally) strategy-taunt

"and/or brain power"

The only component of strategy-taunt that requires brain power is when you lose aggro, at which point you need to hit taunt and cast an aggro spell, perhaps combined in a macro. In that scenario, spam-taunt has to cast an aggro spell. Same actions required, same perception required. The only difference is that aggro flips will happen some tiny percentage less often under spam-taunt, because of the extra +10 aggro/minute. Advantage on brain power: (minimally) spam-taunt, contingent on proving there's a measureable difference in frequency of aggro flips.

"There are multiple posters in this thread who have claimed that they do not use taunt at all."

The only person who has claimed they do not use taunt is Snaggles:
"My paladin doesn’t have disarm or taunt on the bar."
"It never flips. If it did I guess I would put taunt back on my skill bar."
"I might just put taunt back on the bar. Save some mana and kick my feet up when it’s a low risk situation. Like after slow lands and it’s settled."

If you want to assert that multiple posters don't use taunt, you need to prove it. I can provide a quote for everyone in this thread (who has expressed an opinion on this) supporting the strategy-taunt approach except Snaggles, who also noted that if he ever did experience aggro flipping, he would start using Taunt.

So the tradeoff between the two strategies looks like this:
In favor of strategy-taunt: minimally less APM. Significantly more likely to succeed on the first taunt.
In favor of spam taunt: +10 aggro/minute will lead to some minimal reduction in frequency of aggro flips.

We can codify this in math. You're advocating for spam-taunt as being optimal (lower frequency of unsuccessful first taunts):
spam-taunt < strategic-taunt
an unsuccessful taunt is the chance of an aggro-flip times failure_rate:
spam_flip_freq * spam_failure_rate < strategic_flip_freq * strategic_failure_rate

We can now isolate the strategic_flip_freq:
spam_flip_freq * spam_failure_rate / strategic_failure_rate < strategic_flip_freq

We know the strategic flip frequency will be higher than the spam flip frequency, because of the extra 10 hate/minute. Lets call that difference sigma:
spam_flip_freq * spam_failure_rate / strategic_failure_rate < spam_flip_freq + sigma

And isolate sigma:
spam_flip_freq * spam_failure_rate / strategic_failure_rate - spam_flip_freq < sigma

Simplify:

spam_flip_freq * (spam_failure_rate / strategic_failure_rate - 1) < sigma

And since we don't know spam_flip_freq either:

spam_failure_rate / strategic_failure_rate - 1 < sigma / spam_flip_freq

We now have provisional values for the left hand side. 1-0.083 is 0.917, 1 - 0.50 is 0.50, and that ratio is 1.83. Subtract 1, and:

0.83 < sigma / spam_flip_freq

In other words, with the provisional success rates of 8.3% and 50%, respectively, for spam-taunt and strategic-taunt strategies on first taunt, the impact of the change in frequency rates has to be 83% of the innate frequency of an aggro flip ever happening.

In summary, if the frequency of at least one aggro flip in normal gameplay for a given mob while using the spam-taunt approach is X, the frequency using strategic-taunt approach would have to be 1.83X for the spam-taunt approach to be more-optimal in avoiding aggro-flips.

If you can prove that, you will convince me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

... Nothing but nonsense.

You've already admitted to being a troll in this thread. https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=116 . All you are doing is trying to waste people's time. Please stop. You are just spamming the thread.

If someone wants to actually address the points I made here:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=140

I will be happy to do so.

[Duik]

Ok. We get it. Say stuff once and leave it there. I have seen the same fucking sentences over and over. Sometimes worded slightly differently but still.
As it is, id prefer trolls than spammers. Some trolls are at the least entertaining.
But please, continue repeating ones self and calling out trolls. Repeatedly.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok. We get it. Say stuff once and leave it there. I have seen the same fucking sentences over and over. Sometimes worded slightly differently but still.
As it is, id prefer trolls than spammers. Some trolls are at the least entertaining.
But please, continue repeating ones self and calling out trolls. Repeatedly.

Tell the trolls to stop repeating themselves, spamming, and trolling. The problem will be solved. You are asking the wrong person.

[Ripqozko]

Every DSM thread, always same, i feel bad for kittens

[Penish]

Another 20 pages of DSM being a retard, congrats

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Penish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Another 20 pages of DSM being a retard, congrats

Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Every DSM thread, always same, i feel bad for kittens

Continuing to raise your trolling post counts does not hurt me or help you. I hope that you will stop this nonsense one day, but at least it is quite obvious to see who the trolls are here.

[Guesty07]

Literally everything he says to other people, every other person reading it thinking that same thing but about him. Glad we're all in agreement - use taunt when you need to, not before. End thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Guesty07 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Literally everything he says to other people, every other person reading it thinking that same thing but about him. Glad we're all in agreement - use taunt when you need to, not before. End thread

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have proven nothing, we already knew the correct answer before you got involved.

Knights, do not bother clicking taunt unless you wish to raise your skill in it, or reacquire lost aggro. Ignore the myths/lies/theories.

Trolling and simply saying "I am right" without providing any logic, evidence, or reason, is pointless. You are just hurting yourself by posting this kind of nonsense.

For people interested in the truth instead of nonsense and trolling, please see this post:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=140

Strategic taunting and spamming taunt are both viable strategies, and this has yet to be disproven.