Solo Barbarian Shaman Stat Allocation

[loramin]

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[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People can go back and read the post history, so I am not sure why you think you are in the right here. The facts are obvious to see. If you were the "logical and dispassionate" arguer you claim to be, you wouldn't type "FTFY" without any logic or reason behind it[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'll repost the analysis for readers who actually want to learn and/or have a discussion. I also have a prediction. Loramin will not read it, and proceed to ask the same questions that have already been answered. If he doesn't do that and actually reads/responds to it, then we will have taught Loramin to read. A win/win either way in my book.

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking. This is WITHOUT RAID GEAR. Usually the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you. This means 25 WIS / 5 STA is generally the better way to go (or 25 WIS / 5 AGI for Ogres). If you don't believe me, you can create Magelos with various gear and see how the stats shake out. Remember that you also get a +50 STA buff, but only a +10 WIS buff that is an illusion, which means it falls off more often due to zoning. You can also drink a +STA potion that you can craft yourself.

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run. This is because if you can cap STA without needing Riotous Health / Primal Essence, you end up freeing up a buff slot, because you do not need to cast Riotous Health on yourself. Freeing up a buff slot can be difficult to do, so this can be more important than just raw stats.

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level. You will need to be around level 40 before you start noticing a difference. Generally speaking if you are concerned about starting stats, you are looking towards the end game, where those points end up giving you the most returns.

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times. If this wasn't true, everybody would be running two HP earrings instead of a stat earring + Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. They would be getting https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_Eyes instead. Generally speaking Shamans do not do this, because the stat penalty from putting on Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is insignificant. Having another inventory slot open for a bag is better, and Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is easier to use because it does not require a target. If losing 35 HP or more on your earring doesn't change how often you die, why do you think the 25 STA will make a difference? Having a Hammered Golden Hoop instead of the Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring would give you that 75HP plus 8 more STA, and yet people wear Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring instead.

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying, which is why the +25 WIS can give you a small chance to survive a bad encounter. Similar to the +25 STA, this chance is very small. The usual culprit for this both Pre-Torpor and Post-Torpor are strings of resists and/or root breaks. Shaman spells are expensive, which means fizzling, resists, and root breaks can really add up quick if you are not careful. Here is a video of me fighting Bravatar: https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=1244 . As you can see at that timestamp, I am low on both HP and Mana. If he had given me one or two more unlucky resists, I would be completely out of Mana. If I was at 2% mana and 40% health, I would probably gate for safety because a double attack from Bravatar would get me very close to dying. Remember, this is me fighting Bravatar in mid-tier raid gear, so a lesser geared Shaman would be even lower on Mana.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are the one who has proven time and again they don't read posts. The only thing I can do is move on, because it is clear you can't have a normal discussion about this. You just keep repeating disproven points, and you don't know they are disproven due to lack of reading.

Let's recap: in this thread alone, I didn't use the PE hammer as an example of non-raid Shaman gear, I didn't call me out for not providing a Magelo ... that was provided on page 1, and I didn't simply stop reading/responding in the middle of the conversation (which anyone can see by going a couple pages back).

But keep making (bad) attacks against me instead of logical arguments, I'm sure it's convincing peole [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can cap STA easily with gear + Riotous Health + an STA potion. Just because you don't like using potions or STA gear, doesn't mean it is harder to cap STA. You have multiple avenues to get tons of STA, and this is not true with WIS.

At the very end of your Shaman career, yes you can. But even at the very end of your career, you still won't be using Stamina potions for most fights, because you don't need them for most fights (again, max stats are not important) and it's not worth wasting the plat/time to make them.

You might well use consumables (potions, root nets, emeralds for Avatar, etc.) at level 60, with Torpor and good gear, to do a really tough fight! But again, you'd do so at the very end, not for 95+% of your Shaman's life.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Provide a Magelo please. You keep refusing to provide evidence for this, other than your 200k+ Magelo of yourself, which can cap STA just fine. So far there are 4 Magelos proving my point against 0 Magelos proving yours.

Another mark of a good debater: they keep bringing up points the other side has already conceded. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We both agree: it is possible to max your stamina with cheap gear. But you keep burying your head like an ostrich (that's not a real thing BTW) when it comes to addressing the point I won't concede, which is that no real Shaman is going to dedicate their gear to maxing their Stamina! They are going to want other stuff ... stuff like the Shrunken Goblin Earring that you yourself keep saying is so valuable.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This isn't what happened, the post history is clear.

Yeah, you never just declared "the only ___", as if your beliefs were self-established facts; someone else must have written:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run.

And:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run.

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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, I have provided evidence to the contrary of this. You have provided nothing other than an anecdote. I myself did run out of mana before health while leveling. So evidence wise we are at an impasse there. We both have an unprovable anecdote. But I do have a video, and you do noThis isn't what happened, the post history is clear.t. Factually speaking that video shows how Mana can save your life, and you have no evidence to show how the 75HP is better.

I already clearly rebutted your "evidence" earlier, you just ignored it:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe you missed the part about how you were exchanging Mana <=> HP over the course of that (long) fight, so you can't just blame your starting mana amount on the result? What if you have 7k mana, but never cannibalize once, so you run out: was your max mana the reason you ran out?

Similarly here, if you'd just Torped a bit less and Cannibalized a bit more, you could instead be making the argument that you had low health at the end of the fight. How you played doesn't prove anything.

Meanwhile, even if you could somehow prove that 60 Shaman with Torpor and with Dragon-soloing gear need max mana, it stil wouldn't change the fact that for 95+% of a Shaman's career, HP will be more valuable than Mana.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I already clearly rebutted your "evidence" earlier, you just ignored it:

Meanwhile, even if you could somehow prove that 60 Shaman with Torpor and with Dragon-soloing gear need max mana, it stil wouldn't change the fact that for 95+% of a Shaman's career, HP will be more valuable than Mana.

The problem is you think anecdotes and poorly constructed logic are rebuttals. I have actual evidence, you do not. You somehow believe being an armchair general when it comes to fighting something like a WW dragon is good enough. When you are in a fight like that, you are making quick decisions based on how the fight is going. Claiming that "you could have theoretically cast your spells more optimally" doesn't really help your argument that 75HP is better, because I could make that same argument in a way that makes mana seem better. Since both arguments are theoretical, it is hard to determine which one is correct without practical application. That is why video evidence is great, because you can see how a fight happens in a practical scenario, rather than an armchair general scenario.

If you honestly believe 25 STA > 25 WIS (starting stats) is true for 95% of a Shaman's life, you need to actually show some evidence for this lol. You claim that I am the one just saying "I am right and you are wrong", but for some reason you believe that your "95% of a shaman's life" argument is somehow beyond question. Why is that? You do know you are doing exactly what you claim I am doing, right? You saying "95% of a shaman's life" is equivalent to "I am right, and you are wrong", because you refuse to define what that means. That is why I am asking for a Magelo, for example, so we can figure out what you are actually talking about.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let's recap: in this thread alone, I didn't use the PE hammer as an example of non-raid Shaman gear, I didn't call me out for not providing a Magelo ... that was provided on page 1, and I didn't simply stop reading/responding in the middle of the conversation (which anyone can see by going a couple pages back).

But keep making (bad) attacks against me instead of logical arguments, I'm sure it's convincing peole [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is such a silly point that I have already rebutted. I just used PE hammer as an example of how Shaman's have more STA buffs than WIS buffs. There is no "gotcha" here, it is just a fact. Please stop wasting time on this, because it is just a weak an nonsensical attempt at a "gotcha", and not a valid point.

And yes, people will see that you have been reading posts extremely poorly and then responding with incorrect information. There really isn't much I can do to continue a conversation based on your misreading of it. Resetting was an easier way to try and get you to read the arguments properly. I am not saying it worked too well unfortunately, but it's a waste of time to continue discussing something that you don't have the correct information on. Thinking I have PE on when I don't, for example, taints your understanding of how easy it is to max your buffs out.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At the very end of your Shaman career, yes you can. But even at the very end of your career, you still won't be using Stamina potions for most fights, because you don't need them for most fights (again, max stats are not important) and it's not worth wasting the plat/time to make them.

You might well use consumables (potions, root nets, emeralds for Avatar, etc.) at level 60, with Torpor and good gear, to do a really tough fight! But again, you'd do so at the very end, not for 95+% of your Shaman's life.

I have factually disproven this, please stop saying it. You can cap STA in your 40s with 20k plat or less. Or provide a Magelo for what you think 95% of a Shaman's life is.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Another mark of a good debater: they keep bringing up points the other side has already conceded. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We both agree: it is possible to max your stamina with cheap gear. But you keep burying your head like an ostrich (that's not a real thing BTW) when it comes to addressing the point I won't concede, which is that no real Shaman is going to dedicate their gear to maxing their Stamina! They are going to want other stuff ... stuff like the Shrunken Goblin Earring that you yourself keep saying is so valuable.

Again, you keep missing all the points. If a Shaman will reduce their max HP by 35 or more via Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring and not notice a difference, they will not notice a missing 75HP. You don't understand when max HP actually matters. The Magelo I posted is not designed to show an optimal Shaman build, it is to show you that a poor Shaman who is a casual player can max STA with little investment. You can't have it both ways: You can't claim that 95% of a Shaman's career won't cap STA because they are not twinked, are too casual, etc., and then turn around and say most Shamans can easily afford Fungi Tunic, so they will just buy that. YOU NEED TO DEFINE WHAT 95% OF A SHAMAN'S LIFE LOOKS LIKE. Otherwise it is just some nebulous term you are throwing around because it can't be disproven.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This quote still surprises me:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can keep repeating "the only reason is" until you're blue in the face, but it's neither evidence nor a logical argument. Although I do agree that a Shaman could save a buff slot as you describe, it's entirely irrelevant to this thread because non-raid Shaman don't hit buff limits either.

I am not sure where you get the conviction for this statement, because in the Bravatar video I am self buffed and maxed out on buff slots. The only "raid buff" Shamans get is Primal Avatar and Primal Essence. I do not have Hammer of the Dragonborn, so that is not one of my spells, and you can use regular Avatar lol. Even without Avatar I can still hit the buff limit. I am not using Inner Fire, for example, and that does stack with everything. So if you really cared about 30 HP, you could cast that on yourself, which would take up one more buff slot than what was shown in that video. Again, video evidence.

You can also get buffed with things like POTG, which lasts 2 hours, and would take up another buff slot. I do not have POTG on in that video. You don't need to be in a raid to get POTG.

You can also use potions to buff yourself too, and I am not doing that either.

Nothing about my gear is allowing me to hit max buffs. Someone without any raid gear could do the same thing.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This quote still surprises me:



I am not sure where you get the conviction for this statement, because in the Bravatar video I am self buffed and maxed out on buff slots. The only "raid buff" Shamans get is Primal Avatar and Primal Essence. I do not have Hammer of the Dragonborn, so that is not one of my spells, and you can use regular Avatar lol. Even without Avatar I can still hit the buff limit. I am not using Inner Fire, for example, and that does stack with everything. So if you really cared about 30 HP, you could cast that on yourself, which would take up one more buff slot than what was shown in that video. Again, video evidence.

You can also get buffed with things like POTG, which lasts 2 hours, and would take up another buff slot. I do not have POTG on in that video. You don't need to be in a raid to get POTG.

You can also use potions to buff yourself too, and I am not doing that either.

Nothing about my gear is allowing me to hit max buffs. Someone without any raid gear could do the same thing.

Page 21, i finally learned something. I had no idea inner fire stacked with fos.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Page 21, i finally learned something. I had no idea inner fire stacked with fos.

Yup, it's pretty nice if you want a tiny bit of an HP boost for free.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not sure where you get the conviction for this statement, because in the Bravatar video I am self buffed and maxed out on buff slots. The only "raid buff" Shamans get is Primal Avatar and Primal Essence. I do not have Hammer of the Dragonborn, so that is not one of my spells, and you can use regular Avatar lol. Even without Avatar I can still hit the buff limit. I am not using Inner Fire, for example, and that does stack with everything. So if you really cared about 30 HP, you could cast that on yourself, which would take up one more buff slot than what was shown in that video. Again, video evidence.

Who is casting Avatar on themselves (and burning an emerald with each cast) in every fight in their daily play? This is an extreme case.

Again, in 95+% of their play, Shaman are not hitting max buffs. I'd honestly venture to guess 99+%: it's really something they'll only do for their very hardest fights. And again most people aren't just endlessly soloing Western Wastes dragons for months at a time after maxing out their gear: it gets old and they move on.

[Troxx]

/barf

Loramin …. Dude …