Game Mechanics: AC/Level Mitigation & Backstabs

[Aadill]

@Shiftin:

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

10 DMG Piercer - (130) Magic Number, (293) Max hit
11 DMG Piercer - (143) Magic Number, (323) Max hit
12 DMG Piercer - (156) Magic Number, (352) Max hit
13 DMG Piercer - (169) Magic Number, (381) Max hit
14 DMG Piercer - (182) Magic Number, (411) Max hit
15 DMG Piercer - (195) Magic Number, (440) Max hit

Actually the magic number is a diminishing curve (13 points per level, diminishes from 9 to 6% gains per damage increase on weapon) and the max hit is also a diminishing curve (29-30 points per level, diminishes from 9 to 6% gains per damage increase on weapon)

As far as ATK not affecting damage distribution ATK SHOULD be shifting your damage HIGHER towards your magic number but not past it. I think that was said in that one link that went to a PDF file earlier in this thread (if not I kinda remember where it's at and I'll post it later). There were some other references to stuff that affects damage over all such as STR increasing max damage by a percentage but ATK only shifted a portion of your distribution upwards.

With that said, the way I understand it is that if your ATK shifts your minimum up to your magic number but your magic number is only 10 points higher, high AC mobs will mitigate that ATK bonus and bring you right back down to minimum. That's why with a 13 damage weapon you have slightly better chances because it's not 130 -> 120 but 169 -> 120. How many of your backstabs were greater than 120 but lower than 169 with your 13 damage weapon? How many more were above 169 than with a 10 damage weapon? That might clear some stuff up about ATK.


Also this:

Originally Posted by kanras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Instead, the backstab damage is calculated, and if it's less than the minimum, the damage is set to the minimum.

I bet if you used a rusty dagger you'd see 95%+ minimum backstabs.

[kanras]

Originally Posted by Aadill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

@Shiftin:
Actually the magic number is a diminishing curve (13 points per level, diminishes from 9 to 6% gains per damage increase on weapon) and the max hit is also a diminishing curve (29-30 points per level, diminishes from 9 to 6% gains per damage increase on weapon)

There's no curve to magic numbers. It's just 2x weapon damage.

As far as ATK not affecting damage distribution ATK SHOULD be shifting your damage HIGHER towards your magic number but not past it.

This is impossible due to the way the client damage formula works.

[Aadill]

Sorry kanras I'm talking about the returns per damage increase of the weapon. I used Treat's numbers because I think we established they were correct but the increase per damage of the weapon diminishes (13 points per damage but never going any higher, making the damage increase linear but the returns non-linear).

As far as the second part - is that how it should work or no? I sorta pulled that one out of my arse trying to remember what I read.. might be wrong on it~

[Treats]

Originally Posted by Aadill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As far as ATK not affecting damage distribution ATK SHOULD be shifting your damage HIGHER towards your magic number but not past it.

As you add more and more ATK you will end up seeing more gains towards Magic Number damage. There will still be a minimal gain from Magic Number + 1 to max but in order to see a noticeable increase you would need to be fighting something that was way below your level.

Player level VS Mob Level and Player ATK VS Mob AC should be the greatest factors in determining where your hit distribution is spread.

Rough Example:

If you were fighting Trakanon with 1000 ATK lets say most of your hits were for minimum damage. If you added 300 ATK (1300) you would probably see a pretty big increase in your hits ranging from (Min + 1) to Magic Number. Most of them still would probably on the low side (from Min to halfway between Min and Magic Number) and over Magic Number damage it would look about the same with a minimal increase (increased though). With Player level VS Mob Level there is simply no way to alter this EXCEPT to raise your level. This is why it was SO important back in classic. Differences in raiding at 59 and 60 were large. You could overcome this somewhat with higher ATK but depending on the Mob's AC (most of the time when raiding you were doing hard shit with high AC) it just wasn't enough. Couple this with being able to better resist AE's at 60 rather than 59 and you were dying alot faster requiring more heals only to do marginal DPS.

Now say you were fighting a Black Bear with 1000 ATK. Most of your hits would probably be right around Magic Number damage + and -. Increasing your ATK by 300 (1300) you would end up seeing alot more hits sprayed in between Magic Number and halfway between Magic Number and Max with it dropping off as you got higher and higher to your Max damage. Hits for minimum to (Magic Number - 1) would be very low.

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

stuff

That's pretty much how I understood it but with what Kanras is saying that's nigh impossible to do? formulate? calculate?

[Treats]

I think what he was saying is that it would be impossible to stop the affect of ATK on your damage distribution over (Magic Number + 1). It cannot affect just Minimum to Magic Number, it has to cover the whole range from Min to Max (but should have a low effect from (MN + 1) to Max.

[Daldolma]

I don't know much about all the formulas involved in the damage calculations, but I know for a fact that something is off with rogue melee. On live, Rapier of Oriin in main hand with Sebilite Croaking Dirk in offhand parsed better than the converse. It doesn't here, and it's not close. I know this because I had the combo then, and I have the same combo now.

Probably not terribly helpful since I don't know how to fix the problem, but at least I can help confirm that there is a problem.

[Arkyani]

Backstab has been broke since the May 29th patch with..

Kanras: All attacks by clients except throwing and archery now using new mitigation formula to more accurately distribute hits.

...and it seems they have no plans on putting it back to how it was. Its sad when backstab is now the same as a regular off-hand melee hit 50% of the time. Actually, I hit harder with green jade axe then most of my backstabs.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Arkyani [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Backstab has been broke since the May 29th patch with..

Kanras: All attacks by clients except throwing and archery now using new mitigation formula to more accurately distribute hits.

...and it seems they have no plans on putting it back to how it was. Its sad when backstab is now the same as a regular off-hand melee hit 50% of the time. Actually, I hit harder with green jade axe then most of my backstabs.

Shrug. If they don't know how to fix it, that's understandable. I don't. But I don't see how you could argue it's working as intended. Anyone who played a Kunark-era Rogue on Live could confirm that it's not working as it did back then. The backstab ability has essentially been marginalized, whereas on Live it was a game-changer. Does Crystalline Spear even out-parse Bone Razor in main-hand right now? Because on Live, those two weren't even comparable.

[Treats]

Originally Posted by Arkyani [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Backstab has been broke since the May 29th patch with..

Kanras: All attacks by clients except throwing and archery now using new mitigation formula to more accurately distribute hits.

...and it seems they have no plans on putting it back to how it was. Its sad when backstab is now the same as a regular off-hand melee hit 50% of the time. Actually, I hit harder with green jade axe then most of my backstabs.

You mean how it was when you would Max backstab 40% of the time? Are you fucking kidding me? I'd love to see a log where your Green Jade Axe in offhand is hitting harder than ANY one of your backstabs.

I honestly don't understand the point of these posts. Do you guys expect to be double backstabbing for 350 EVERY single round?????????

Shrug. If they don't know how to fix it, that's understandable. I don't. But I don't see how you could argue it's working as intended. Anyone who played a Kunark-era Rogue on Live could confirm that it's not working as it did back then. The backstab ability has essentially been marginalized, whereas on Live it was a game-changer. Does Crystalline Spear even out-parse Bone Razor in main-hand right now? Because on Live, those two weren't even comparable.

It's far from marginalized here. With double backstab and a minimum of 120 at level 60 you ARE the class for DPS. Noone else can compare.

Monk is next after you. What do they get? Slightly higher skill caps. No double flying kick. No minimum of 120 for flying kick.

Monk
Weapon Skills (Hand to Hand 245) cap 252
Double Attack cap 250
Dual Wield cap 252
Offense cap 252
Flying Kick cap 225 (Min 3)
NO double flying kick

Rogue
Weapon Skills cap 250
Double Attack cap 240
Dual Wield cap 245
Offense cap 252
Backstab cap 225 (Min 120)
Double backstab