Let's talk CLASS BALANCE

[Zuranthium]

Thanks for that reply, Hithrohir. Good to see some other intelligent, knowledgeable discussion.

The only thing I disagree with you on is Clerics not being required, because my statement was specifically about Clerics being required for high level content. Sure, you can take on most of Karnor's without having a Cleric, but that's a far cry from the hardest areas in Kunark and so many of the areas in Velious. Moreover, without CHeal, it takes far more TIME to tackle content. In many cases, you do in fact become restricted from the content (or it becomes unfun) because of that time/downtime restriction. This is problem. You shouldn't log onto Everquest and hear this in Guild Chat: "Hey, who wants to group?" 30 minutes later..."Hey, anyone find a Cleric yet?" 30 minutes later..."Well, I guess we aren't playing today."

Clerics should be a necessity for killing specific MOBs, not a necessity for simply playing the game at a suitable pace.

Originally Posted by mala [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

thats not how it works on here, the fire pet innately has his DS no matter what. Not trying to sound rude but you should prolly do a lil more research into how things are working on this server before commenting on class balance and such.

I realize that's how it works on here. That's not the way it was in Classic, though. The Fire Pet had to actually cast the damage shield on itself and it often wouldn't cast it immediately after being summoned (and it wouldn't cast it while in combat). Thus, chain summoning Fire Pets wasn't a good soloing method in Classic, although if you had 2 Magicians grouped together it worked because that provided the time to make sure the pet had DS up before sending it in. I'm not sure when they changed the Fire pet in live to automatically be summoned with the damage shield.

Given that this server's goal is supposedly to be 100% (99.9%?) Classic, I don't see any relevance in the latter part of your statement. Classic is the bar and thus I am talking about the way things were in Classic and what should be modified from how it was in Classic, such that the game will be better. As I discussed in another thread, this server will eventually go past the Classic timeline. If you just freeze the game at the end of Velious era, then the server will dwindle.

Players are coming to this server because they want the Classic Everquest experience. They will not mind if details are tweaked here and there to improve the game. They will welcome it, actually. The "Classic Everquest experience" is not in the exact numbers of how the game was coded. Moreover, to continue the server once the timeline runs out, there will have to be new content or shifting content anyway. Which is why I argue that changes for the better should be made sooner rather than later. This server will never be 100% Classic EQ, ever. Not possible. Given that such a thing is impossible, the server should strive to maintain the classic EQ experience without forcing the exact coding of how every little thing was during the actual Classic timeline. Trying to recreate the exact coding does not recreate the classic EQ experience.

Originally Posted by etplante [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But dude, he's level 40 with 10k banked after only two weeks. This young jedi master is not just talking the talk, he's walking the walk.

Level 45 now, without any help at all (and actually spending time helping noobies in the zone), exactly one day after making that post. *shrug*

[Stormhowl]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you just freeze the game at the end of Velious era, then the server will dwindle.

Citation needed; appealing to the fear of the server shutting down isn't a wise choice nor is it a good argument for why a server designed to follow what the Classic EQ experience was, should deviate from that.

Players are coming to this server because they want the Classic Everquest experience. They will not mind if details are tweaked here and there to improve the game. They will welcome it, actually.

1) Please do not generalize your opinions across the population of players who come to this server.

2) You do not speak for anyone but yourself.

Who are you to say what people want and don't want?

Moreover, to continue the server once the timeline runs out, there will have to be new content or shifting content anyway.

Why? There's other servers on EQEmu if you want changes like that.

Which is why I argue that changes for the better should be made sooner rather than later.

Why do the changes even need to be made in the first place? Why does "sooner rather than later" matter when it conflicts with the goals of the project?

And your answer had best not be more doom and gloom about the end of the time-line, as that is just an appeal to fear fallacy, and I doubt any of us are interested in that.

This server will never be 100% Classic EQ, ever. Not possible. Given that such a thing is impossible, the server should strive to maintain the classic EQ experience without forcing the exact coding of how every little thing was during the actual Classic timeline. Trying to recreate the exact coding does not recreate the classic EQ experience.

Nirvana/Perfect Solution fallacy. While it can't be a perfect 100% creation down to the finest detail, that doesn't mean something needs to be changed to the timeline.

If you honestly feel otherwise, then back up your statements. At this point in the thread, I cannot see where you learned how to argue... was it 4chan? There's too many logical errors in your reasoning for this to be a serious discussion.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Stormhowl [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Appealing to the fear of the server shutting down isn't a wise choice nor is it a good argument for why a server designed to follow what the Classic EQ experience was, should deviate from that.

As I've said over and over, trying to photocopy something does NOT recreate the actual experience. If you try to recreate a film shot-for-shot and line-for-line, the copy will be FAR different than the original, even though you followed the exact framework perfectly. Nobody wants to see an attempted copy of a film, except perhaps to just to experiment for the sake o fit. What people DO want to see, though, are films that engage their emotions and their imagination in the same way that other films they loved did.

Trying to follow the exact Classic EQ timeline does not recreate the Classic EQ experience. To recreate the essence of what Classic EQ was, you instead need to create an environment where people are playing the game like it was in the early days and also how it was meant to be played. This means not only fixing problems the original designers knew about and weren't able to fix when Classic EQ was actually happening (or didn't have the understanding/perspective to fix at the time), but also a whole new slate of issues with regards to how people approach the game now in 2011.

Since the "classic timeline" will in fact run out and this server will NEVER exactly be Classic EQ, the server should thus keep the spirit of Classic EQ alive and make beneficial changes now rather than waiting to make changes after the "classic timeline" has run out and people want more content and/or are upset about very, very big problems that were in Classic EQ.

Originally Posted by Stormhowl [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Who are you to say what people want and don't want?

Who is a choreographer to say what dancers/ice skaters should do and what they shouldn't?

Who is a game designer to say how to make a good game and how not to?

Who is a physics professor to say what the best theory is for a mechanics solution and what isn't?

Who is a marketing executive to say how to make more people buy your product and how not to?

Let's not diminish the knowledge people have in the World and the value of learning from history, thanks.

Originally Posted by Stormhowl [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nirvana/Perfect Solution fallacy. While it can't be a perfect 100% creation down to the finest detail, that doesn't mean something needs to be changed to the timeline.

It's hardly a fallacy. Things already HAVE been changed from the timeline. There are specifically things that will never be Classic on this server, not just because of time/logistic restrictions (which is a real problem - the developers can't do it all), but because the developers specifically don't want to change it to how it was in Classic.

Given that the developers are already specifically changing things from how they were in Classic to improve the game experience of this server, here and now in 2011, I am talking about how things from Classic EQ can be improved to make the game better as a whole for all of us to play.

[Doors]

Good point. I should seek this guru's council about everything in EQ life. As a certified expert, who are we underlings to argue with him?

[Hithrohir]

1.) Are Clerics absolutely REQUIRED for groups at the later levels? It used to be that you HAD to have a Cleric or else you literally couldn't group. Non-Cleric heals were far too inefficient. In my opinion, Clerics should only be a requirement for bosses and possibly a select amount of other game content. Druids should be able to function perfectly fine as the main healer for a party outside of those limited exceptions. Looking at the p1999 Wiki skill list, it appears that Druids are far behind.

It'll always depend on the content and the rest of the group, but generally speaking, a cleric is not required. Excluding CH (and Torpor, see below), there's not that big a difference in the efficiency of the heals, just the size. Most group content does not require constant CH on the tank, so if you're in Karnor's Castle or something, any priest class can function as a healer. If there's an enchanter and/or bard in the group, there should be no issue with a druid or shaman healing the group.

A note on Torpor is that it's an extremely mana efficient heal to use on the tank provided that they aren't taking burst damage (which slow generally ensures) and aren't hindered by the debuff provided by Torpor. Thus, if the tank is well-geared and a bit over-leveled for the content, a shaman - with their already excellent mana management - can easily heal a group in anything but the toughest content. Torpor is a high-level and rather rare spell, however, so it's likely that the shaman is done with one-group content by the time he has it. I've always considered druids by far the worst of the priest classes for healing as they just don't have anything but their sub-par heals, lacking both a better alternative and a strong mana management tool.

Druids were roundly considered one of the most useless classes once the expansions came along. They were called upon for teleports to certain areas to save time and that's it. They weren't able to do ANYTHING else of value and were completely outclassed by Shaman, who had the same level of healing + excellent self energy regen + the most powerful slow debuff in the game + they could do MORE damage (and for less energy expended) because of having a worthwhile Pet and good haste spells and comparable DoT's/DD's + they got other buffs/debuffs that were a bit better (+Attribute buffs of every kind and the Malaise debuffs) and they even got SoW!!!

Druid is indeed one of the worst classes in the game, together with ranger. They can do a lot of things okay-ish, but that's the issue: you probably never wish to bring a druid, and doing so is generally a compromise when you couldn't find a more focused class. They can be convenient for their SoW and ports, but that doesn't make your group stronger. They have decent utility, lackluster buffs, but much of it is provided by other classes. I can't think of any realistic scenario where a druid's role isn't better served by some other class. It became a nice and easy class for casual solo players, the proverbial suburban mom who just wanted to putter around and not be hindered too much by travel, gear requirments, or the need or inability to group. A well-played druid can serve well in a group or raid, but that player could probably have done better with another class. Some people can't see through this illusion and harbor the misconception that druids are good because they saw a few skilled veterans playing druids well.

Having teleports does not balance out getting a Pet, the best slow debuff in the game, other buffs/debuffs that are superior in general, and excellent self energy regen to power all of those abilities even further and more efficiently! In my mind, these classes would only be balanced if:

*Druids could heal significantly better than Shaman...even with heals that were closer to Clerics, the Druid would still not actually be as efficient of a "defensive" character as the Shaman, considering how the latter class gets the best slow in the game and self energy regen to power their heals/debuffs.

*Shaman did not get pets...this is extra free damage that is a slap in the face to the INT casters, as it makes the Shaman capable of doing more damage over time than those classes. Very imbalanced how a powerful defensive class is additionally capable of producing more damage over time than a class entirely dedicated to offense!

It's kind of a pointless discussion because this server doesn't attempt to balance the game, but if you wanted to make each class a viable healer, you could just give them each an aspect of healing to excel at. Give shamans strong HoTs to complement their buffs and debuffs, give druids fast, mana-efficient heals for emergency and reaction healing, and give clerics the big tank heals and group heals.


I'm not really interested in the spellcaster damage part, but the core of that issue stems from the fact that a) mana regen isn't fast or flexible enough to match melee DPS and b) caster itemization was crap until Velious and didn't become remotely balanced until much later. We're still at a point in the game where caster gear pretty much just gives hp and mana, and none of it affects your actual damage output. That's the design flaw that hinders those classes.

[Stormhowl]

Jeez, this thread should be referenced on wikipedia or something as an example of an Argument from Authority fallacy.

So. Fail.

[Doors]

Don't bother arguing with this guy. He has his head so far up his own ass that anyone else's opinions are deemed wrong, regardless of any validity they have.

[Pico]

aspergers.txt

[Hamahakki]

Citing specific evidence of how classes were balanced in early classic is going to be difficult, but for what it's worth most of what Zuranthium is saying is pretty much how I remember it and I played from launch day through Velious.

That said, this thread is pointless because nothing is going to change. It doesn't matter what a random player thinks druids or clerics or shamans should have been. This project already has a vision and it is unambiguous.

The argument that p1999 is about recreating the spirit of EQ1 rather than the details is bogus. With a few small exceptions, the leadership of this project have chosen to replicate original EQ exactly, even in the case of bugs which were later fixed on live.

If you really want things to be a certain way, go make your own server. Nilbog and Rogean did it. Coming to this project and expecting your changes to become reality because you declare yourself a "guru" is as useless as it is hilarious.

[Ostros]

Who is a choreographer to say what dancers/ice skaters should do and what they shouldn't?

Who is a game designer to say how to make a good game and how not to?

Who is a physics professor to say what the best theory is for a mechanics solution and what isn't?

Who is a marketing executive to say how to make more people buy your product and how not to?

Let's not diminish the knowledge people have in the World and the value of learning from history, thanks.

....what?

Are you suggesting that your supposed categorical knowledge of EQ is somehow thoroughly practiced and certified via years in the field and time spent at a university? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Given that the developers are already specifically changing things from how they were in Classic to improve the game experience of this server, here and now in 2011, I am talking about how things from Classic EQ can be improved to make the game better as a whole for all of us to play.

Right and we're trying to tell you that it's ultimately, and entirely useless. I'm sure everybody on this server (including myself) has a load of wonderful ideas as to how we could unfuck this server. Unfortunately for you our particular devs aren't interested in this. Maybe you'll luck out and when they finish with the patch archive after Velious they'll start un-sony-izing things to give themselves more work to do on the project, and then this thread could be come useful. Until then, no. And even then: NO, why would you start balancing classes, that's about 1/4 of what got me hating WoW was that ever constant stream of class-breaking changes.

Removing the unique functions and styles of classes in EQ would ruin it entirely whether it's here or on live. Now please stop trying to start a circlejerk by coming on here and stroking your engorged ego in front of everyone. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]