Dem Debates

[Raev]

Orruar vs iruinedyourday is like using a nuclear bomb to kill a jellyfish.

Originally Posted by AzzarTheGod

I guess that is the ongoing ideological debate. Is it American to say "fuck everyone else, I'm getting paid regardless of exploitation". I personally think unregulated capitalism has deleterious effects on populations of its citizens, and until these side effects are addressed with appropriate regulation

We do not have unregulated capitalism. We have corporatism, where corporations own our government, e.g. the AIG bailout because otherwise Goldman Sachs would have gone under. Government will ALWAYS side with the corporations over the little guy because politicians like getting paid.

Originally Posted by Catterine

You may or may not like the idea of universal health care, but it wouldn't have much impact on how much money you actually take home each week.

You are missing the point: government does not work. Socialism has not worked in Russia, China, Argentina, Venezuela, Europe, USA, or anywhere else. The more government is involved in any economic activity, the less efficient that activity becomes.

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We do not have unregulated capitalism. We have corporatism, where corporations own our government, e.g. the AIG bailout because otherwise Goldman Sachs would have gone under. Government will ALWAYS side with the corporations over the little guy because politicians like getting paid.

You are missing the point: government does not work. Socialism has not worked in Russia, China, Argentina, Venezuela, Europe, USA, or anywhere else. The more government is involved in any economic activity, the less efficient that activity becomes.

I could site countless fact after fact where corporations were reigned in from causing harm to thousands of people by the government.

you could find zero instance where the government harmed economic growth in america that wasn't just your 'opinion'.

The government stops criminal acts of negligence, that's a fact... maybe you think that's putting unfair pressure on corporations.

We are looking to Bernie Sanders because politicians being bought and sold to the level that they are NOW is a relatively new thing.

Bernie Sanders said NO to contributions from a corporate donor that he found their ethics questionable.

If you dont like corporate politics there is only ONE politician that you should vote for.

If you don't like corporate politics but you keep voting for it, then you should not be involved in any political conversation.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are missing the point: government does not work. Socialism has not worked in Russia, China, Argentina, Venezuela, Europe, USA, or anywhere else. The more government is involved in any economic activity, the less efficient that activity becomes.

This is inaccurate. Bernie isn't asking for pure socialism, and none of the other democrats are either. You've got an image in your head of Soviet-style socialism and it just doesn't do reality justice. Democratic-Socialism works. It works in Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Iceland, Japan, Germany, Australia, Canada, Switzerland, Austria, and basically every developed Western nation who surpass the United States in most metrics for human progress and well being.

It's not the role of government to micromanage all economic activity, but it is its role to protect the lives of its citizens. It performs this role very well in most other advanced nations, where people are generally happy, healthy, and prosperous. Meanwhile, in the United States, our country is being systematically looted by the elite and their politician minions. We can't reform our healthcare system, we can't reform our election system, we can't rebuild our infrastructure, revolutionize our energy production, control the scam that is our higher education, or reign in the military industrial complex. Our peers are doing these things, or never had these problems in the first place, because at a very fundamental level, their politicians aren't owned solely by the elite, and as a result, their political systems work (they also don't have the fiscal conservative political legacy of temporarily-embarrassed millionaires like we do but that's another discussion).

I know how hard you and Orruar lust for some Jeffersonian libertarian paradise where big guvment can't dip its greedy hands into muh property, and a big prosperous middle class works together on equal economic footing guided by the regulatory hand of the unfettered free market, but this is just not reality. That has never existed and never will exist, because humanity will always establish a hierarchy to fill the vacuum left by small government, and wealth will always concentrate over time. Government is the only force capable of countering the destruction and waste inherent in natural, organic human systems like capitalism.

TL;DR Stop saying Democratic-Socialism doesn't work. You don't get to just ignore the many places where it works wonderfully, while the USA continues to spiral into neo-Feudalism.

[sOurDieSel]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TL;DR Stop saying Democratic-Socialism doesn't work. You don't get to just ignore the many places where it works wonderfully, while the USA continues to spiral into neo-Feudalism.

rofl

"Democratic-Socialism" worked great, just as the NSDAP....

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Meanwhile, in the United States, our country is being systematically looted by the elite and their politician minions. We can't reform our healthcare system, we can't reform our election system, we can't rebuild our infrastructure, revolutionize our energy production, control the scam that is our higher education, or reign in the military industrial complex. Our peers are doing these things, or never had these problems in the first place, because at a very fundamental level, their politicians aren't owned solely by the elite, and as a result, their political systems work (they also don't have the fiscal conservative political legacy of temporarily-embarrassed millionaires like we do but that's another discussion).

So first off, I don't think there is much evidence that this is true. If you check https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results the USA comes in at 74. That's behind some of the European countries (Denmark: 92, Iceland: 79, Germany: 79) but ahead of many others (Austria: 72, France: 69, Spain: 60). The reality is that people of all shapes, colors, religions, and nationalities like money and power . . . and politicians more than most.

But even if we grant your assumption, we live in the United States. How is the expansion of government likely to fix our elite/politician problems?

Originally Posted by Lune

Japan

I nearly stopped reading when you quoted Japan as a Social/Democratic success story. Japan is embroiled in a 25 year depression exacerbated by failed Keynesian policies and corporatism that are currently screwing us here in the USA, and just suffered the worst nuclear disaster since . . . that other socialist country, Russia. I'm sure the citizens of Fukushima are thrilled by your assertion that their strong government protects them from capitalist waste.

Originally Posted by Lune

TL;DR Stop saying Democratic-Socialism doesn't work. You don't get to just ignore the many places where it works wonderfully, while the USA continues to spiral into neo-Feudalism.

I am not going to restrict my list of Democractic Socialist countries to those populated by Northern Europeans. That would be racist.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So first off, I don't think there is much evidence that this is true. If you check https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results the USA comes in at 74. That's behind some of the European countries (Denmark: 92, Iceland: 79, Germany: 79) but ahead of many others (Austria: 72, France: 69, Spain: 60). The reality is that people of all shapes, colors, religions, and nationalities like money and power . . . and politicians more than most.

But even if we grant your assumption, we live in the United States. How is the expansion of government likely to fix our elite/politician problems?

I'm not claiming our government needs to be expanded to fix this issue, but that corruption needs to be fixed through campaign finance reform and cultural awareness of the issue. Bernie is the only candidate dedicated to this. And that corruption permeates most of our systems including our healthcare. And again, it's not sufficient to look just at the corruption, but also the extent to which it is fucking us over. And here in the USA, it's fucking us over very hard. People in Austria and France still have good access to healthcare, higher education, etc.

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I nearly stopped reading when you quoted Japan as a Social/Democratic success story. Japan is embroiled in a 25 year depression exacerbated by failed Keynesian policies and corporatism that are currently screwing us here in the USA, and just suffered the worst nuclear disaster since . . . that other socialist country, Russia. I'm sure the citizens of Fukushima are thrilled by your assertion that their strong government protects them from capitalist waste.

You're judging them based on a single aspect, economic depression, which is merely the observation that their economy is not growing. It ignores the fact that your average Japanese person is doing very well, lives in a very wealthy society, and has minuscule unemployment. I'm not sure how having a nuclear plant hit by an immense natural disaster is the fault of socialism. Oh, maybe it's that their system is smart enough to still use nuclear power instead of bending over to the petroleum and coal industries? Economic growth isn't the end-all be-all metric for success of a society. That's something humanity is going to learn real soon.

[iruinedyourday]

Orror i cant quote your quotes but they contradict themselves. Anyone knows that global warming MAY make life on earth inhabitable.

As for the other ludicrous claim you posted he said I noticed you found no proof of that either.

To the guy that said why more government? You and i just look to different police forces. I think the government should police corporations, if you want no government, who will protect us from corporate greed? Even VW commits criminal acts and if were not for the gov they would have no reason not to. GM was forced to recall 2.6 million cars that were unsafe, thanks to the government.

At no point in the citizens life has more government been negative for people like you and me. It is and always will be designed FOR us to protect you from criminal acts of negligence by your neighbors.

[sOurDieSel]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Orror i cant quote your quotes but they contradict themselves. Anyone knows that global warming MAY make life on earth inhabitable.

At no point in the citizens life has more government been negative for people like you and me. It is and always will be designed FOR us to protect you from criminal acts of negligence by your neighbors.

Alice, please go back to fucking wonderland.

[Thana8088]

Originally Posted by sOurDieSel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Alice, please go back to fucking wonderland.

I will interpret this as an objection.


Can you site an example?

[sOurDieSel]

Originally Posted by Thana8088 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will interpret this as an objection.


Can you site an example?

naw dawg, I can't 'site' nuffins