Feminism today

[radditsu]

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rape culture:
"Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, or refusing to acknowledge the harm of some forms of sexual violence. The notion of rape culture has been used to describe and explain behavior within social groups, including prison rape, and in conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire societies have been alleged to be rape cultures"

Too me, it seems overblown to call the entire USA a rape culture. Most people agree with me. There might be pockets of rape culture, like prison, parts of the catholic church, and certain sports sub-cultures; but rape isn't generally accepted by the public, or denied to be a problem. Not in 2015 at any rate. Maybe its because I live in Oregon, where you become a registered sex offender and get up to 5 years for grabbing someones ass uninvited. I don't really know -- but one thing is for sure, feminist scholars have not really provided good empirical data to support the claim.
There is never going to be zero rape. Ever. There will never be zero murder either. Men will always have to worry about getting their ass kicked by stronger men (or groups of men) as well. All this sucks, but is really beside the point.

Historically, women were less educated than men. This is no longer going to be true. It is actually going to be the opposite, because their are more women in college and professional schools than men. There is a problem with businesses not offering paternity leave for pregnancies. But part of that is legitimate business concerns with the bottom line. The government will have to provide reimbursement to business for this to ever truly go away.
As for whole professions being discriminated against, there's something to it -- but its overstated. The main reason engineers get paid more than teachers is because engineering is less popular. If far less people were willing to work as teachers for the current pay offered, their salaries would go up. Women choose not to go into engineering -- despite being actively being pressured by academic and career advisors. It's not as if there's a guy on top of a building twisting his mustache and figuring out ways to pay women less. It's the same with computer science. There are simply less women interested than men. Its not the market or the business being sexist. The reason for women being less inclined to computer science (at least in modern times), has to do with social pressure outside of school and potential employers. Girls friends, family, etc. But people prefer to blame some dark figure in a board room instead.
The problem with pay gap conversations are the way they are pitched. There's people holding up signs about the pay gap in front of city hall....as if it is city hall doing the pay discrimination. The truth is, a male engineer and a female engineer with the same dedication to the job and level of experience, get paid the exact same the vast majority of the time. The pay gap has to do with choices women make. The way to address the issue is to discover why women make those choices -- not complain about teachers pay being sexist.
I'm not going to get into the weeds about anecdotal observations. Feminists not agreeing however, is well established. Evidence is available for anyone with google and shred of intellectual honesty.

Fuck her right in the pussy.

[2pacalypse]

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rape culture:
"Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, or refusing to acknowledge the harm of some forms of sexual violence. The notion of rape culture has been used to describe and explain behavior within social groups, including prison rape, and in conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire societies have been alleged to be rape cultures"

Too me, it seems overblown to call the entire USA a rape culture. Most people agree with me. There might be pockets of rape culture, like prison, parts of the catholic church, and certain sports sub-cultures; but rape isn't generally accepted by the public, or denied to be a problem. Not in 2015 at any rate. Maybe its because I live in Oregon, where you become a registered sex offender and get up to 5 years for grabbing someones ass uninvited. I don't really know -- but one thing is for sure, feminist scholars have not really provided good empirical data to support the claim.
There is never going to be zero rape. Ever. There will never be zero murder either. Men will always have to worry about getting their ass kicked by stronger men (or groups of men) as well. All this sucks, but is really beside the point.

Historically, women were less educated than men. This is no longer going to be true. It is actually going to be the opposite, because their are more women in college and professional schools than men. There is a problem with businesses not offering paternity leave for pregnancies. But part of that is legitimate business concerns with the bottom line. The government will have to provide reimbursement to business for this to ever truly go away.
As for whole professions being discriminated against, there's something to it -- but its overstated. The main reason engineers get paid more than teachers is because engineering is less popular. If far less people were willing to work as teachers for the current pay offered, their salaries would go up. Women choose not to go into engineering -- despite being actively being pressured by academic and career advisors. It's not as if there's a guy on top of a building twisting his mustache and figuring out ways to pay women less. It's the same with computer science. There are simply less women interested than men. Its not the market or the business being sexist. The reason for women being less inclined to computer science (at least in modern times), has to do with social pressure outside of school and potential employers. Girls friends, family, etc. But people prefer to blame some dark figure in a board room instead.
The problem with pay gap conversations are the way they are pitched. There's people holding up signs about the pay gap in front of city hall....as if it is city hall doing the pay discrimination. The truth is, a male engineer and a female engineer with the same dedication to the job and level of experience, get paid the exact same the vast majority of the time. The pay gap has to do with choices women make. The way to address the issue is to discover why women make those choices -- not complain about teachers pay being sexist.
I'm not going to get into the weeds about anecdotal observations. Feminists not agreeing however, is well established. Evidence is available for anyone with google and shred of intellectual honesty.

This is going to be the topic until it gets a serious reply. Come on guys, think about it I know you have an opinion.

[paulgiamatti]

It's not really that great of a post. It makes some decent points - haphazardly, but decent nonetheless, and because of the reasons I've already described it's much better taken and left alone as commentary rather than addressed as something to be responded to.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by 2pacalypse [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is going to be the topic until it gets a serious reply. Come on guys, think about it I know you have an opinion.

Well if you insist ...

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Too me, it seems overblown to call the entire USA a rape culture. Most people agree with me. There might be pockets of rape culture, like prison, parts of the catholic church, and certain sports sub-cultures; but rape isn't generally accepted by the public, or denied to be a problem. Not in 2015 at any rate. Maybe its because I live in Oregon, where you become a registered sex offender and get up to 5 years for grabbing someones ass uninvited. I don't really know -- but one thing is for sure, feminist scholars have not really provided good empirical data to support the claim.

Obviously different sub-cultures are different, but there's a real pan-American trend. Consider this survey that was just done at the University of North Dakota:

According to the survey, which analyzed responses from 73 men in college, 31.7 percent of participants said they would act on “intentions to force a woman to sexual intercourse” if they were confident they could get away with it. When asked whether they would act on “intentions to rape a woman” with the same assurances they wouldn’t face consequences, just 13.6 percent of participants agreed….“The No. 1 point is there are people that will say they would force a woman to have sex but would deny they would rape a woman,” Sarah R. Edwards, an assistant professor of counseling psychology at the University of North Dakota and the lead researcher for the study, told Newsweek.

Granted that's just college students from one college, but we're talking about a third of them! And this isn't some old survey from the 50's, it just happened!

It's hard to argue there's not some "rape culture" in America when a third of a college student body are ok with rape when if they don't get caught.

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is never going to be zero rape. Ever. There will never be zero murder either. Men will always have to worry about getting their ass kicked by stronger men (or groups of men) as well. All this sucks, but is really beside the point.

K ...

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As for whole professions being discriminated against, there's something to it -- but its overstated. The main reason engineers get paid more than teachers is because engineering is less popular. If far less people were willing to work as teachers for the current pay offered, their salaries would go up. Women choose not to go into engineering -- despite being actively being pressured by academic and career advisors. It's not as if there's a guy on top of a building twisting his mustache and figuring out ways to pay women less. It's the same with computer science. There are simply less women interested than men. Its not the market or the business being sexist. The reason for women being less inclined to computer science (at least in modern times), has to do with social pressure outside of school and potential employers. Girls friends, family, etc. But people prefer to blame some dark figure in a board room instead.

You may remember that earlier in the thread I quoted this wikipedia page:

Using Current Population Survey (CPS) data for 1979 and 1995 and controlling for education, experience, personal characteristics, parental status, city and region, occupation, industry, government employment, and part-time status, Yale University economics professor Joseph G. Altonji and the United States Secretary of Commerce Rebecca M. Blank found that only about 27% of the gender wage gap in each year is explained by differences in such characteristics.

That means it's not about teachers vs. engineers, because when the study controlled for a whole slew of factors, including occupation, they found that something other than all those factors accounted for 73% of the pay disparity.

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Evidence is available for anyone with google and shred of intellectual honesty.

So, the wikipedia article I linked must have been like the first or second result when you googled right?

[Tenlaar]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's hard to argue there's not some "rape culture" in America when a third of a college student body are ok with rape when if they don't get caught.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Sidelle]

Originally Posted by haksum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't forumquest that hard so not knowing if you are a woman au natural or one of these P99 'women' makes it difficult to weigh your opinion in these discussions.

I'm used to people here questioning this for many reasons -- I've never worried much about expressing my opinions (here or anywhere else) - no matter how unpopular it is or how many insults I get in reply [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.], I have a rather dominant personality, a fairly vulgar sense of humor, and I enjoy the company of p99 forum nerds and playing EverQuest -- but I really am, in fact, a girl (also a wife and mother of one child), who is more ladylike in real life than people here might expect. Also, there are more of us hanging around here than you guys know.

Anyway. I hope that helps you weigh my opinion on modern feminism in the proper context. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[haksum]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Granted that's just college students from one college, but we're talking about a third of them! And this isn't some old survey from the 50's, it just happened!

It's hard to argue there's not some "rape culture" in America when a third of a college student body are ok with rape when if they don't get caught.

Do you overgeneralize everything this grossly? That's one small ass student body for a college (assuming they are all from the same college because it doesn't state they were) and sounds like a terrible survey. Anything that starts with only 'according to a survey' is usually bullshit and shouldn't be used as evidence for anything. MAYBE if it started out with 'according to a survey (written/spoken?) conducted in 2014 on 73 male students at so-and-so university between the ages of x-y in details, details, details.." but then still, who knows who selected these candidates? For all we know they meticulously picked the muscle head steroid abusing future wife beaters of America club at a some southern I fuck my sister because she's easy hick trade school to fit their agenda.

This could also be easily be torn apart on the usage of the word 'force' as well on account of its ambiguity. Is it physical force, persuasive force, or magical force?(I don't know if they surveyed the college D&D club). How many nerds don't think that they would 'force' Scarjo to sleep with them if they had Charm or Puppet Strings? Some probably wouldn't do it in the end but it sure sounded like a fun idea when they were doing this survey.


And if whatever academic institution you attended taught that Wikipedia is an acceptable source for anything, you need to call and demand a refund. I'm sure there's other terrible references, but this one just caught my eye while skimming.

Originally Posted by Sidelle

I'm used to people here questioning this for many reasons -- I've never worried much about expressing my opinions (here or anywhere else) - no matter how unpopular it is or how many insults I get in reply , I have a rather dominant personality, a fairly vulgar sense of humor, and I enjoy the company of p99 forum nerds and playing EverQuest -- but I really am, in fact, a girl (also a wife and mother of one child), who is more ladylike in real life than people here might expect. Also, there are more of us hanging around here than you guys know.

Anyway. I hope that helps you weigh my opinion on modern feminism in the proper context.

Personality aside, I was just asking for contextual reference. Someone that has been a woman, and treated as a woman, their entire life will have different factors in the development of their view than someone raised as a boy until their early teens when they decided to embrace their femininity.

[Formshifter]

Originally Posted by haksum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Is it physical force, persuasive force, or magical force?(I don't know if they surveyed the college D&D club).

Get ready to fail your sense motive checks, ladies, I've been stacking diplomacy on my rogue since lvl 1 ^.~

[loramin]

Originally Posted by haksum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do you overgeneralize everything this grossly? That's one small ass student body for a college (assuming they are all from the same college because it doesn't state they were) and sounds like a terrible survey. Anything that starts with only 'according to a survey' is usually bullshit and shouldn't be used as evidence for anything. MAYBE if it started out with 'according to a survey (written/spoken?) conducted in 2014 on 73 male students at so-and-so university between the ages of x-y in details, details, details.." but then still, who knows who selected these candidates? For all we know they meticulously picked the muscle head steroid abusing future wife beaters of America club at a some southern I fuck my sister because she's easy hick trade school to fit their agenda.

This could also be easily be torn apart on the usage of the word 'force' as well on account of its ambiguity. Is it physical force, persuasive force, or magical force?(I don't know if they surveyed the college D&D club). How many nerds don't think that they would 'force' Scarjo to sleep with them if they had Charm or Puppet Strings? Some probably wouldn't do it in the end but it sure sounded like a fun idea when they were doing this survey.

Ok, I can understand the "I can't deal with the message so I'll shoot the messenger" vibe, but "magic force"? I'm pretty certain when men said they'd force women to have sex they weren't talking about Puppet Strings [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But ok fine, let's leave that survey out since you dislike it so much. Here's a fact that's backed up by several different studies (so you can't just attack one in particular): 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 (depending on the study) women in America will experience a rape or attempted rape and report it in the study. Obviously we can't even measure the ones that don't report it, although many women don't.

Now look, it takes A LOT of men to rape 1 in 5/6 women in America (even if some of those men commit multiple rapes). It's hard for me to see how there could be that many men willing and able to commit rape if there's absolutely no "rape culture" in America.

Originally Posted by haksum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And if whatever academic institution you attended taught that Wikipedia is an acceptable source for anything, you need to call and demand a refund. I'm sure there's other terrible references, but this one just caught my eye while skimming.

Again with the shooting the messenger [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Look you didn't even need to go to the wikipedia page itself, just read the part I quoted:

Using Current Population Survey (CPS) data for 1979 and 1995 and controlling for education, experience, personal characteristics, parental status, city and region, occupation, industry, government employment, and part-time status, Yale University economics professor Joseph G. Altonji and the United States Secretary of Commerce Rebecca M. Blank found that only about 27% of the gender wage gap in each year is explained by differences in such characteristics.

We're not talking about some bogus study that some idiot pasted in to Wikipedia without any scrutiny, we're talking about a study conducted by an econ (not women's studies!) professor at Yale and the US Secretary of Commerce. I don't know how much more "official" of a study I can find for you.

[Formshifter]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We're not talking about some bogus study that some idiot pasted in to Wikipedia without any scrutiny, we're talking about a study conducted by an econ (not women's studies!) professor at Yale and the US Secretary of Commerce. I don't know how much more "official" of a study I can find for you.

But how can you possibly trust the oppressive patriarchy?? Maybe their study was intended to convey false information to keep feminists in the dark as a systemic way of oppressing them?!