What caused the decline of EQ as the #1 MMO?

[Shadey]

Originally Posted by Hottbiscuits Dreadmuffin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) PoK books (No need to talk to anyone to get somewhere)
2) Bazaar (No need to talk to anyone to buy something)
3) AA points (Soloer? No need to talk to anyone to ask for buffs)
4) Faction became pointless (PoK/PoTranq NPCs were accepting and not racist)

Boring, boring, boring. 200 hours on my shadowknight on live, a good chunk of which I'd spent grinding faction so Humans/Wood Elves/some High Elves/Halflings/Gnomes/Dwarves would love me. Did I ever need this after PoP and Luclin?

No.

AA points were good for those that solo, grouped and raided. AA's benefited all players. Not just solo players. Find something real to point at to replace that one. LOL

[Kika Maslyaka]

When, PoK, Bazar and AAs were added - the EQ was growing from 400k subscribers to 600k for yet another 2 years and 3 expansions - hows that possibly qualifies as a downfall???

eq was too hard core for the majority of people that played it.
Except there was no alternative to it for a long time, so people kept playing it.
When EQ2 and WoW came out, the majority of players (and potential player) have clearly shown that they prefer the casual gaming, rather than hard-core group/raid oriented gameplay. So they left.
Those who still like the hard core- they still playing to this day.

[Polixenes]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When, PoK, Bazar and AAs were added - the EQ was growing from 400k subscribers to 600k for yet another 2 years and 3 expansions - hows that possibly qualifies as a downfall???

eq was too hard core for the majority of people that played it.
Except there was no alternative to it for a long time, so people kept playing it.
When EQ2 and WoW came out, the majority of players (and potential player) have clearly shown that they prefer the casual gaming, rather than hard-core group/raid oriented gameplay. So they left.
Those who still like the hard core- they still playing to this day.

That sums me up. My best times in EQ were single groups - crawling through LGuk or Sol B. I put up with 3am finishes in Hate, Fear, Sebilis for as long as I could but eventually, one afternoon in TOV after my guild had been killing wyverns and dragons for 15 straight hours I just threw in the towel. Gave away my cleric on the spot and that was that. (For 4 months until I bought the game again and came back as a druid).

[Daywolf]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When, PoK, Bazar and AAs were added - the EQ was growing from 400k subscribers to 600k for yet another 2 years and 3 expansions - hows that possibly qualifies as a downfall???

Well, AA and Bazaar I agree with you. I viewed the bazaar as an ok addition, but pre pop. Pre pop, people would still hang out and sell stuff but just at a different location. Not talking about vendors, I mean trading and haggling prices outside of the vendor area. lol a lot of people would not even go into the vendor area due to the horrendous lag/video thrashing. When pop came around, with the instant travel, it became vendors only. Then later they broke up the vendor areas to kill the lag.

I liked AA, well enough at least. It was an answer to balance and better specialization. Though maybe not implemented quite right. At least it was an addition and not a total revamp of the existing system, as often that does not work out *cough SWG*

PoK (the books) is valid point made as a bad thing. It would not be a sudden downfall, just like many of the new play to win games last for a few expansions before players get bored and leave. EQ got reeeeal easy with instant travel, which is a point to which the vendors became so dominant over the hagglers/traders; no one would stick around more than 10 minutes. Then players could just travel anyplace at any time, as they did often, rather then spending a week or two in an area and meeting new players over time. It killed the community this quick travel, and EQ's strong point was community.

I'd also mention instancing as a bad thing. It brought further division to the game community just as instant travel did. So now not only could you get someplace instantly, and leaving an area after a day or two thus not getting to know anyone, but you could have your own secluded area of the game to play in, just like a multiplayer RPG.

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

eq was too hard core for the majority of people that played it.
Except there was no alternative to it for a long time, so people kept playing it.
When EQ2 and WoW came out, the majority of players (and potential player) have clearly shown that they prefer the casual gaming, rather than hard-core group/raid oriented gameplay. So they left.
Those who still like the hard core- they still playing to this day.

Well not on EQ live.... apart from the occasional progression servers they run now. All the community breaking "improvements" they introduced still exist. Some still sub, though probably a large part of them being station access members that play EQ as an alt game to the other games SOE includes into access. That's what it became to me after the game changes, for me at least, playing planetside and SWG but until those got screwed up too.

Yes, and too, when new games came out, players started filtering out of EQ. However, most of WoW consisted of Blizzard fanbois; those that preferred games like Diablo and warcraft (rts) playing those for years, following Blizzard games like mad puppies. Blizzard had a large playerbase before WoW was even conceived, and they got all their non-mmo players to join through aggressive marketing. As it became popular, many from the existing mmo's filtered into it due to the large communities it spawned while games like EQ having it's community destroyed by SOE. And as many of the hardcore (desiring depth) realized, WoW sucked pretty hard, at least after vanilla (I didn't play vanilla but later, and it sucked). But then maybe vanilla WoW sucked too, but just a delayed effect like what PoK instant travel books did to EQ in time.

I don't disagree with Rogean, it a way WoW did kill EQ. Not because WoW was better though, but because Blizzard pulled in a lot of non-mmo subscriptions, flooded the market with a lot of "prospective subs" that every developer decided to chase after, rather than the traditional MUD/MMO player any longer. These non-mmo players went around criticizing all the existing mmo's for not being WoW enough for them, or like before WoW they criticized mmo's for not being like Diablo enough in which the debates raged for years as they wanted Diablo recognized as an mmorpg. But they are mostly Blizzard fanbois, and no game will be good enough for them to hang out bored to death in but for Blizzard games. Developers only see leprechauns, chase after them while abandoning their existing communities and the games they like to play.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When, PoK, Bazar and AAs were added - the EQ was growing from 400k subscribers to 600k for yet another 2 years and 3 expansions - hows that possibly qualifies as a downfall???

eq was too hard core for the majority of people that played it.
Except there was no alternative to it for a long time, so people kept playing it.
When EQ2 and WoW came out, the majority of players (and potential player) have clearly shown that they prefer the casual gaming, rather than hard-core group/raid oriented gameplay. So they left.
Those who still like the hard core- they still playing to this day.

I am not sure if MMOcharts.com is still up, but their data showed how EQ was declining. If you accept their charts at face value then EQ was declining from 1999 onwards. It was the RATE of new players incoming to the game that declined, NOT the total user base! The game eventually became top-heavy. This means most of the players were high level. So any new players that entered the game found themselves much lonelier than their forebears. It got increasingly worse. This made the game harder and, of course, increased complaints. But this was not the only reason EQ did some of the things it did. In sum, SOE did a mediocre job with EQ over the years and gave up on it. GOD is probably the best example of their failure to connect with their users. They could afford to be cocky and sure of themselves when they owned the market, but they couldn't do that anymore because back then MMORPGs were popping up all around them. They just got too confident and perfekt.

(there is one thing I will say, though. i like the music in god. feels so bittersweet.)

They don't learn very well. I don't think SOE can make a game that respects its players. Whether they're just spending their time and money on some other project, or ignoring you even when they do help your game, or impulsively making changes to your game, or just not understand you... they're the underachiever that beats himself up over not getting number #1 in the charts. They focus so much on being number #1 that they forget to BE number #1! Now, I don't want to criticize them too much or give them unearned hate. Obviously, I played EQ1 off and on until 2010, so I was giving them my money even when I disagreed with them. And they can make good content. The problem is that all of the good things I can think of are too far and few between.

I hate to generalize. You know another reason EQ1 got hurt was because SOE put its attention on EQ2 and other sony online games. EQ1 was just one part of their portfolio. If you look at EQ2, it has many upgrades that would be nice to have in EQ1. But, bottom line, i've been hurt before by SOE and I just can't trust that they can look past the $$$ and be original. They're too indifferent. Too business-oriented. Too cocky.

But again... maybe I'm generalizing too much. One possibility is that all MMORPGs get old and all companies respond similarly: they move on to another game. Who wants to invest in an old game? Even I wouldn't, if this were 2005. I would have invested in EQ2. Maybe MMORPGs will always die. Looked at from this perspective, SOE is just like anybody else. It was a gut reaction to recoil from the old and run to something new. So it goes.

[Hottbiscuits Dreadmuffin]

At first I liked the AA points, and before I quit I think I had about 50 of them or so (whatever the minimum was to get that awesome SK horse)

AA points gave some classes WTF skills that weren't along the lines of classic EQ.

The points were just another thing on my list that I felt meh about right before I lost interest in playing. As soon as I got the horse I went back to the emptiness of Kelethin and took screen shots of myself sitting beside a Wood Elf for nostalgia.

[Kika Maslyaka]

AAs sucked, not because of what they gave you, but because it was an insane time sink added on top of evryhing else. By comparecen, WoW talent system is a way better approach to class customization.

[Shadey]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

AAs sucked, not because of what they gave you, but because it was an insane time sink added on top of evryhing else. By comparecen, WoW talent system is a way better approach to class customization.

LOL comparing to WoW. How many years before WoW came out did AA's in EQ? LMAO And imo nothing good came from WoW. It destroyed is what it did.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by Shadey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

LOL comparing to WoW. How many years before WoW came out did AA's in EQ? LMAO And imo nothing good came from WoW. It destroyed is what it did.

2 words - "Diablo 2"

[Mcbard]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

WoW talent system is a way better approach to class customization.

I agree with this statement. Not that I enjoy class customization, because I don't, but the talent system was a better approach to allowing class customization imo.

Edit: Since I haven't posted in this thread before (and yes I realized it was a bump) I might as well put my opinion out there! What I think killed EQ was the release of a more "polished" game coming out (WoW) combined with the EverQuest developers deviating from "The dream" that were the first couple of expansions and core game, along with people just naturally becoming burned out. MMO's are fairly young, but it's most likely we'll see some sort of life cycle established for the good ones, much like EQ had, and much like WoW is now seeming to gain. I can't talk about WoW subscriptions or anything because I don't know the numbers, but just from what I hear from lots of players is how they are getting burnt out playing it, how monotonous it has come, and how there was a development of an "elite class" of players that had been playing since the start and beat everything and are now seeking their kicks elsewhere (no I don't mean project1999). Nothing can last forever.